225 timing - not the usual timing question - heatup

All,
Here's a quick sum up of what's going on.

225 built from block up- .030 over with an rv cam, 4 barrell, blah blah. Anyway the engine runs fine but lacks a little power for everything its got in it when compared to the same 4barrelled 225 in my dad's jeep (which I mentioned once before). Plus, it runs warm, 3/4 temp on working gauge after about 5 miles of highway driving, or 5 mins of offroading.

Here's the timing deal - if I role the engine around to TDC according to compression coming out of the #1 cylinder, the timing mark on the balancer is at about 35deg btdc according to indicator. If I try to use this as my starting point to static time with an HEI - will not run at all. Now if I ignore the location of this actual TDC and role engine to TDC on the indicator it also will not run. If however, I leave it at the tdc according the indicator then allow distributor to rotate one tooth clockwise beyond this location it runs fine - idles, accels, fuel mielage fine but heats up. Any ideas why this is?? Could this be associated with a low-end cam? wrong cam maybe?? There is no pinging what so ever.....reaching for straws here.

One other thing - this motor has a high volume oil pump - which has always produced low oil pressure - idles at 20psi never goes over 55psi. hmmm

Cooling is as follows-
new 2-core crossflow aluminum racing radiator (made for v8 conversion) , 17" zirco electric fan with 185deg t-stat switch (blowing in correct direction , working 160 deg t-stat in manifold, automatic cooler with 12" zirco electric fan, new water pump, working heater fan and good heater core ('79 tub).

Thanks again,
Ty

 

Ty just a thought, do you have the factory timing cover with the cast in timing marks or a later one with the bolt on timing tab?

 

Good thought, and I wish that was it, but no. The engine is a '69 225 which had all the original equipment on it, knew the original owner.

 

I know it's a pain in the #$% at this point but I would recommend pull the front cover & check it with a degree wheel. This will also let you get a closer look at the balancer (replaced previously?). Is it possible you received an even-fire cam? (I've heard it'll run but I don't know how well).

 

Did you have enough gap on the piston rings when they were put in? Did you check them? Were the pistons a tight fit? Also, your oil pressure doesn't seem all that low to me. That's about the range mine has run since I rebuilt it ten years ago. 55 lbs. is a lot of pressure. The timing thing is interesting. You can use a rod or dowel placed into the sparkplug hole on #1 to feel the piston come up to the top of the stroke. If youcheck it that way, and you know you are on the compression stroke your indicator should be at TDC. If it isn't and you are sure you have the right timing cover, I'd say there is a problem with the crank. Keyway cut in wrong place for harmonic balancer? I can't imagine what else it could be. Cam not properly timed with the crank?

 

Thanks for the suggestions.
Crewcheif22,
I wanted to avoid that, but I think its innevitable. And the suggstion about the even fire cam is one I have thought of. Does anyone know if an oddfire and even fire crank are the same? Harmonic balancer has been replaced (old was cracked) Does anyone know if the key cut for a 231 even/odd is different from the 225? Maybe I have one of those.

Posimoto,
Unfortunately I did not check the end gap, oops. But they were tight going in, felt like others I've put in anyway. Good to hear about the oil pressure, I just always thought idling at or a little below 20 was bad, guess not. By checking the tdc of #1 with a rod or feeling the compression by finger both produce results of the balancer indicating a ~ 35deg btdc. As for the cam not properly timed with the crank, this has also crossed my mind (a lot). Would the jeep even run? compression is good for all cylinders alos. It runs well, just mediocre power.

I will compare the balancer and it's tdc indicator slot with the one in my dad's, his is 100% all original, bought it new.

Thanks guys. I'm curious about responses to the cam questions.
Ty

 

The crankshafts are different in the rod journal area (odd fire uses a companion journal and the even fire uses a split journal). I don't know about the differences in the balancers (TDC marks compared to the key way). I have the 225 I pulled from my '68 and I'm building a '77 even-fire 231 that I can compare the balancers tonight.

 

This may be way off base but after installing a mild racing and 260 heads cam in my Dodge 318 v8 a local hot rod expert determined he needed to advance the timing too the point that a normal 318 wouldn't even run.

The engine has since ran like a veritable BULL!

Like I said this may not be of much help.

 

You state that you put in an RV cam.

Is the grind and lift the same as the one in your dad's?

An RV cam wouldn't necessarily give you the same horsepower output that the cam in your dad's jeep does. Plus, won't the horsepower be down a little until the break-in period is over? I don't have rebuild experience, so don't know myself. Just tossing stuff in to the pool, and trying to learn something.

 

every body has mentioned all of my thoughts,would start out with the simple stuff,timing mark being off may indicate the wrong ballancer,lack of power,cam out of time with the crank, and yes it will run one tooth out of time maybee even 3 teeth out and if it is out of time that will throw yor dist timing out as well,and cause heating,heating up on a seperate note[possible causes head gasket or intake gasket installed wrong,not broke in yet,stuck thermostat] first thing i would check is the damper,get no1 tdc ever how you can that you are absolutely sure it is @ tdc and check the damper this will elimate the damper if is shows right,pull the valve cover with no1 @tdc see if you have a valve on that cylinder trying to open if not that will eliminate the cam being out of time good luck,and keep us posted

 

I compared the balancer on my 225 and the balancer for the even-fire 231 I'm building and found that with the keyway lined up the timing marks are about 3/4" apart. It looked like the even fire balancer would show 10-15 BTDC on the 225 timing cover with the crank at TDC. Good Luck, let us know what happens.

 

Holy smokes! Thanks for all the suggestions. The engine has been broke in a while ago, heating has always been a little high, and now need to address.

First thing I'll check is the balancer.....uncle is checking this, as I had to leave jeep in so cal while I am finishing a job up here in Portland. I'm hoping this is the culprit. And if it's not I'll check the valves at #1 tdc as kaiser-willys indicated. Obviously if one is opening, I will be checking the t-chian and gears...ugh!.

As far as the RV cam compared to dad's stock - I would expect it to have much better "launch" even it had less hp, but it doesn't.

Thanks again,
Ty

 

Your lack of power could be coming from the th350, I had the same problem on mine, I have basically the same set up crossflow v-8 radiator, electric fans, and hopped up engine. My engine wont run with the timing set right. I just put it where the engine runs best, based on vacume. For the over heating I had to block open the rear of the hood to allow more airflow through the engine compartment. going back to mechanical fan. Could the distibutor be for an even fire engine.

 

dist shouldnt matter unless tooth count was diff in which case it prob would even run i agree wiyh you on the rv cam deal should have all kinds of bottom end torque

 

Sorry for the extreme delayed follow-up - took me a while to get back to CA....
Well, after verifying the balancer was correct (it was) and valve timing was correct (it was) I decided to go ahead and change the water pump just cause I was there- made no change in temp. Finally, I swapped out the HEI for a stock AC Delco distributor and at 5 deg btdc she runs 3/8 temp in 105 deg, weather - A MAJOR SUCCESS!! I did take a little hit on the power but am hoping to get it back with a pertronix kit and msd ignition. Part numbers?? Suppliers??

With the pertronix and msd box, what should the plugs be gapped at? At sea level, is about 5 deg as far as I can advance?

The removed HEI - It was built by someone else. As far as I can tell (comparing it to online photos of other oddfire hei) it all looks correct (weird 2x2x2 stator etc) but I could never get the sucker to run right.

Thanks again for all the suggestions,
Ty