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Dana 30 Inner C Removal

Discussion in 'Intermediate CJ-5/6/7/8' started by 47v6, Mar 17, 2023.

  1. Mar 23, 2023
    timsresort

    timsresort Active Member 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    South Lake Tahoe CA
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    Junk wrecker, here ya go. Only slightly field tested.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    fhoehle, Ol Fogie, 47v6 and 1 other person like this.
  2. Mar 24, 2023
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    USA
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    This welder does a nice job 58154C17-3791-4221-8898-F6A6DD26549E.jpeg
     
    Twin2, fhoehle, Ol Fogie and 3 others like this.
  3. Mar 24, 2023
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Northern California
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    You've done too much work to throw a spring under plate on it..... Besides you said it yourself you like to custom make every little part on your jeep!
    U bolt flip it instead!

    [​IMG]
     
    47v6, 3b a runnin, Ol Fogie and 4 others like this.
  4. Mar 24, 2023
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    While that is probably the appropriate thing to do, I’m already thinking about spring over stock YJ and a shackle reversal once I get done with this. I also have to fix my drag link and tie rod and make a better shock mount. … and eh brake lines need redone…
     
    Ol Fogie and timsresort like this.
  5. Mar 24, 2023
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    this one will work
    52166935-EE24-4EC2-831D-8B059E277B82.jpeg

    this one will not. That’s what a grinder is for B8D084D1-3032-4191-A8EF-2780B2050EFD.jpeg
     
    Twin2 and Ol Fogie like this.
  6. Mar 24, 2023
    vtxtasy

    vtxtasy oldbee 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor

    Tucson, AZ
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    Now you filled in your grinding from before. I don't know why but I thought you were spring over already. :confused:
     
    Ol Fogie likes this.
  7. Mar 25, 2023
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Gears.. 6D92F5A7-42A9-4653-B59D-C08442E2AB5C.jpeg probably not right, but the “install kit I got from OX included only this
    5E98B0F3-2FF0-4E65-9BBA-96DCA42204F3.jpeg
    I made my own setup bearings from the old ones.
     
    Fireball likes this.
  8. Mar 25, 2023
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Coast 2EB371BE-FC2F-4355-8B4C-EBDB663EC56E.jpeg
     
    Twin2, vtxtasy and Fireball like this.
  9. Mar 25, 2023
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor

    Florida Keys
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    When using a regular driveshaft with cross joint at each end, I set my pinion angle as close to the same as my transfer case output angle. This has meant that my front pinion angle was slightly lower than horizontal/level. That Jeep drove great at highway speeds in 4wd with no vibrations. Like Nick says, you can an angle finder off the yoke or housing, almost any machined flat surface.
    When I built my Rover D90 clone, I used a front driveshaft with a CV joint on the transfer case end. On this application, I pointed the pinion angle up, roughly straight at the output shaft of the transfer case. I haven’t had this project on the road yet to see how well it works (or doesn’t).
    -Donny
     
    Fireball likes this.
  10. Mar 26, 2023
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
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    Yep, that's the right way to do it. If you want it tilted up for ground clearance or reduced U-Joint angles, then a CV at the transfercase is the proper solution.
     
    Ol Fogie likes this.
  11. Mar 26, 2023
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    This stuff just takes too long. Had to shorten my tie rod for the new rod end with integrated hole for drag link. The tie rod needs drilled, then tapped. The rod end needed reamed for the drag link end. All this stuff is full size truck ends. The UBolt plates got made out of 3/8 plate. I was going to go for the con fer style plate, but I ran out of time and just put it together to get it out of my shop. I used one of the 5/8 u bolts over the D30 housing. E51A27EB-EF09-4D3B-A7E3-75F1FDBD9F6A.jpeg
     
  12. Mar 26, 2023
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
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    If you decide to use a double Cardan universal joint (it is NOT a constant velocity or cv joint) I like to put the pinion angle down (if the rear) a degree or two. This accommodates for pinion climb when under load. Especially with leaf springs.

    The reason a double Cardan joint is not a cv joint is with any Cardan cross u-joint there is a velocity change as it rotates. The higher the angle the higher the velocity change. A double Cardan u-joint assembly simply cuts each u-joint angle in half and so the velocity change in half. It does not eliminate the velocity change like a constant velocity joint does. Hence the name constant velocity like a Bendix, Rzeppa, Tripod-Tulip, etc.
     
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  13. Mar 26, 2023
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
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    A double Cardan is a CV joint. The centering ball keeps the angles on both sides the same and the middle section is a small in-phase Driveshaft. The center section is speeding up and slowing down but the output is the same velocity as the input.
     
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  14. Mar 26, 2023
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
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    Uh, no. The velocity change is simply divided by two between the u-joints but THERE IS STILL A VELOCITY CHANGE in each u-joint. A constant velocity joint has no velocity change whatsoever.
     
    vtxtasy likes this.
  15. Mar 26, 2023
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
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    We're both partially right. A wide angle double Cardan Joint that forces that exact same angle on both side of the joint is a true constant velocity joint. One like we use in drivetrains have the pivot ball fixed on the end of one of the U-joints forcing the angles on each Cardan to not quite match and are really "near constant velocity" U-joints. But they are really close. It's not just halving the angles. The two joints are actively cancelling each other out.

    The last page of this document discusses it:

    https://pami.ca/pdfs/reports_research_updates/(12h) Miscellaneous Topics/743.PDF

    The Constant Velocity Mystery

    Constant velocity in PTO drivelines is an ideal operating condition, and can be achieved with both Cardanjoints and constant velocity joints. But there is more than one method of achieving constant velocity in drivelines.

    A typical driveline with Cardan joints at each shaft end will
    have constant velocity if the operating geometry is ar-
    ranged so:
    • that the yokes on the intermediate shaft are in phase (See Figure 2),
    • and the hitch point is centred between the PTO output shaft on the tractor and the PTO input shaft on theimplement (See Figure 3).
    Another method of achieving constant velocity is through the use of Double Cardan joints, which overcome the limitations of PTO drivelines that have two or more sets of single Cardan joints. Double Cardan joints are typically used where operating angles are too large for single cardan joints. A Double Cardan joint is essentially two single Cardan joints connected by a coupling yoke that contains a centreing mechanism. This centering mechanism keeps the input and output shafts in the same plane, regardless of the operating angle. A Wide-angle Double Cardan joint uses a centreing mechanism comprised of a flat disc with sockets that support the ball stud yokes. This centreing mechanism compensates for velocity fluctuations of the two Cardan joints, thereby providing a constant velocity output (See Figure 5).

    Other Double Cardan joints use centering mechanisms that incorporate a ball and stud mechanism, or a ball and seat mechanism. Double Cardan joints with these centreing mechanisms are considered to be nearconstant velocity joints because their centreing mechanisms do not split the misalignment between the shafts equally for all operating angles. Consequently, these joints do not produce true constant velocity output - except at the design angle. (All joints are designed to transfer power efficiently up to a maximum angle - the design angle. Operation beyond the design angle results in excessive vibration.) For practical purposes, the resulting velocity fluctuation is negligible.

    In comparison, the centreing mechanism in a Wide-angle Double Cardan joint always splits the misalignment be-tween shafts equally. As a result, the wide-angle Double Cardan joint has a true constant velocity output at all operating angles up to the design angle. Double Cardan joints with ball-and-stud or ball-and-seat mechanisms are typically designed for higher speeds than are Wide-angle Double Cardan joints. The Wide-angle
    Double Cardan joint is most commonly used where speeds do not exceed 1000 rpm
     
    Ol Fogie likes this.
  16. Mar 26, 2023
    Dwins1

    Dwins1 Member

    Port Richey, Florida
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    Some how it feels like a math class just broke out. Lol. Going to have to reread this one again. A lot of great information. Thanks
     
  17. Mar 27, 2023
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
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    The problem is the joint does not change the fact that there is still a velocity change between the transmission/transfer case output and the driveshaft tube. The double Cardan joint does NOT eliminate this. It cuts it in half, but does not eliminate it like a true constant velocity joint does. I wish I still had access to my driveshaft trainer so I could show you a video of the effect. I’ve been dealing with these issues for almost 35 years and have seen the effects in the real world.
     
    vtxtasy likes this.
  18. Mar 27, 2023
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor

    Florida Keys
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    Not to argue either point, but I have used both “types” of CV joints with good results for projects in the past. I have used the double-cardan borrowed from the transfer case end of the front driveshaft off a Jeepster, as well as a larger double-cardan I cut from an unknown driveshaft from the junkyard. I used a caged CV from a Range Rover for my Defender clone.
    -Donny
     
  19. Mar 28, 2023
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Ugh, I don't want to get dragged into this but I don't like seeing wrong information posted as gospel on the forum. In this spirit, there have been many times I've gone back and corrected my own bad posts. I'm certainly not immune from being wrong, however in this case I am not. My background is a mechanical engineering degree and working in the automotive industry for many years before moving to Information Technology.

    I don't doubt you've had vibration issues with double Cardan joints driveshafts in the past but it's not because they aren't CV joints. It was most likely due to angle on the remaining single Cardan U-joint, out-of-balance driveshafts, or other issues. If your simulator was showing a halving of speed variation for a double Cardan joint, it was not set up to simulate a double Cardan joint correctly.

    As common knowledge we try to match the pinion and transmission/transfercase yoke angles to prevent speed fluctuation at the axle. The front U-joint speeds up and slows down the driveshaft body but the rear U-joint is doing the exact opposite to the pinion yoke and the net result is a constant speed at the pinion. In essence your driveshaft is a long double Cardan CV joint.

    There are two requirements for a pair of Cardan joints to be a CV joint:
    1. The angles of both U-joints are co-planar like the image below. If one of the end shafts was poking out of your screen it wouldn't be coplanar.
    2. The angles of both U-joints must be the same so they exactly cancel out each other's speed fluctuation.
    There are two possible configurations for a pair of Cardan joints to cancel each other out and be a CV joint. The top configuration in the picture below is like a driveshaft where the input and output shafts are parallel. The bottom configuration is where the input and output shafts are angled the same direction from the center shaft. This second configuration is a double Cardan CV joint:
    [​IMG]

    The centering ball in a double Cardan U-joint forces both angles to be coplanar AND equal ....with a slight caveat. The common double Cardan joints used in driveshafts have the pivot ball fixed to one U-joint with a spring loaded socket on the other and are "Near Constant Velocity Joints". As the U-joint angle increases, the arc of the ball moves it slightly off middle of the U-Joint leading to the angles if the individual Cardan joints being very close but not quite equal. So close that even at 20° joint angle, the speed variation is a fraction of 1%. High angle double Cardan joints use a different mechanism that always keeps both U-joints at the same angle and are true CV at all angles.

    Please don't take my word for it. I've put an SAE paper from a Borg Warner engineer on my Google Drive that discusses all aspects of double Cardan U-joints. Full paper here (warning there will be math): https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bgcmHJcojSbYk5Xn3nikRxdM4fuzFl9F/view?usp=sharing

    This except discusses the speed variation of a driveshaft ball/socket style double Cardan. The yellow highlighted area shows that for a 20° overall joint angle, one U-joint is a 10.1351° and the other is at 9.8466°. This leads to a speed fluctuation of 0.186% (very small!). It has the same speed fluctuation as a single Cardan joint at 2°. That's ten times better. Not two times better.
    [​IMG]

    With this post I'm done. It's up to the reader to decide what to believe.
    And no hard feelings Nick. You still know far more about Jeeps, parts, compatibility, and repairs than I ever will and I'm thankful you take the time to post it here so we can all learn something. I just want to make sure those who care have access to the right info. :beer:
     
    ITLKSEZ likes this.
  20. Mar 28, 2023
    Dwins1

    Dwins1 Member

    Port Richey, Florida
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    See I told you the math class broke out.
     

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