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Thoughts On Early Cj Purchase

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by landy, Feb 11, 2021.

  1. Feb 11, 2021
    landy

    landy New Member

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    Hi all, thinking about buying a '61 CJ5 with original engine and drivetrain. Haven't owned one before so seeking some guidance on effort and cost to make some upgrades. I had a 1960 Series 2 Land Rover, which I think is pretty similar in regards to power, drivetrain, and lack of comfort. I really like vintage 4x4s and the look of the old CJ5s. And, generally, the cost of the vintage CJs still seem pretty reasonable compared to Land Rovers, Land Cruisers, etc.

    I'd like to use the CJ5 for occasional light-to-moderate 4x4ing, and nice weather joy riding. No plans for daily driving it. Specifically, I'm interested in upgrading the brakes to a dual circuit system for safety reasons. I suspect the original style drum brakes would be ok for my needs so I don't think I'd consider converting to discs or even bigger drums. I've looked at Herm's site for the dual circuit upgrade and the cost seems reasonable. Any comments on cost, effort required, and results?

    Also, thinking that a four speed transmission with a granny gear or lower first gear would be a nice upgrade relative to off-roading. Read several threads on this site and it appears that there isn't really a direct bolt-in option for the '61 with a 4 cylinder. I'm not sure what the diff gear ratio the '61 has, maybe 5.38s, which would likely be ok with the tall first gear in the T90. However, if higher like 4.27s, that wouldn't be desirable.

    What else should I consider or be aware of? Thoughts?

    Thanks!
     
  2. Feb 11, 2021
    norville

    norville New Member

    Pa
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  3. Feb 11, 2021
    jeepstar

    jeepstar Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    I bought a '62 cj5. I did:
    a 4 wheel brennan metcalf conversion on it, with a new dual master brake cylinder. (some folks say the dual MC is unnecessary, use your judgement from personal experience)
    all new suspension
    all new wire harness
    new clutch (half of mine disappeared, not sure how it even drove)
    and that's it. been daily driving it for 2 years now.

    some other stuff as well, but thats not really going to help your question.

    mines got 5.38 gears in the axles, which yours will have as well.

    mines got the 134F head motor and the T90 combo, which yours will have too.

    if you can test drive it, keep it in 2nd gear and decelerate over bumps, see if pops out of gear. its pretty common ive learned, and the T90 is pretty easy to rebuild if you are so inclined.

    my '70 has a T-98, and i just love the 4 speed transmission. you can get a freshly rebuilt one from herm for 1700.00 shipped to your place of choosing. its a fantastic transmission, but not too common if something goes south. personally thinking about getting one from herm for the '62.

    Check closely with a bright light around the leaf spring hangers for cracks.

    i say BUY IT! you only live once, and life is too short to say you have never owned a CJ5.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
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  4. Feb 11, 2021
    norville

    norville New Member

    Pa
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    I've just started my dual master upgrade. I've had a few line failures and do not trust the single system.
     
  5. Feb 11, 2021
    PeteL

    PeteL If it wasn't for physics, and law enforcement... 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    I have a stock '56 f-head.

    Personally, making a lot of major engineering changes to an f-head is pointless. It is a fine trail vehicle if you don't need speed or power. If you do, get a V6.

    A crawler gear isn't really needed, low range works fine IMHO, for instance.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
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  6. Feb 11, 2021
    Bobcreag

    Bobcreag Bob C

    Danville, CA
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    I bought a 1965 CJ-5 that had been sitting in a horse stall in a barn for 17 years after the original owner had passed away. As you can imagine, it took a lot of minor repairs to get her going again, but it was fun to work on it. New fuel tank, fuel pump, carburetor rebuild, new brake shoes, brake hardware, wheel cylinders, master cylinder, brake lines & hoses, wheel bearings and seals, tune up, fluid changes, etc.

    My jeep has the stock F134 engine, T90 tranny and D18 transfer case. The differentials have 4.27 gear ratios. I drive my jeep around town as well as some pretty crazy off-roading (moderate and and then some) in the Sierras near Donner and Truckee. You would be surprised how capable these rigs are off-road even in their stock configuration. The original owner ran this jeep on the Rubicon Trail with without a lift kit, 15" bias ply tires and only the addition of a roll bar and angle iron for rock sliders (of course the Rubicon Trail was easier 25 years ago). Don't forget that the D18 transfer case offers both high range and low range gearing.

    I say get your jeep running and see how you like it before you think about dropping in a new transmission just to get a granny low gear ratio. I agree that a dual master cylinder would be a good upgrade for safety reasons. I find that the stock drum brakes are OK, but when you drive through a stream, they don't work too well until they dry out. Disk brakes would alleviate this problem.

    Have fun and enjoy your purchase!

    Bob
     
  7. Feb 11, 2021
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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    We have a saying here. "Asking whether you should buy a Jeep on this site is like a crack addict asking his crack addict buddies if he should buy more crack." Unlikely you will get an unbiased response.

    A CJ with the F134 is top-speed limited by engine power versus wind resistance. The air is a mighty barrier, and there are few vehicles with worse aerodynamics. I'd say the three most popular upgrades are brakes, steering and a bigger engine. Modern drivers will judge the original 9" drum brakes as unacceptably poor, even with a split system master cylinder. A decade or two ago, the 11" Bendix drum brakes were a very popular upgrade, though today the Suzuki disks may be easier. The original Ross manual steering may be ok for factory sized tires, though the Saginaw conversion is very popular. And a larger engine was and still is a very popular upgrade.

    Note that you can buy a '72-75 CJ-5 and it will be essentially the same platform, with a 3" longer wheelbase to accommodate the excellent AMC inline 6s of the era. And it will have 11" brakes, split master cylinder, a larger engine and Saginaw steering. These Jeeps will be highway capable without any upgrades. Likely there is some loss of the romantic factor with this newer vehicle - just depends on what you want.

    I agree - you can go lots of places with the 3-speed and low range. The 3-speed transmissions are easy to drive and easy to repair. Rowing a truck 4-speed in stop-and-go traffic requires real work from the driver.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
  8. Feb 11, 2021
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
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    My 2 cents: Check the tub carefully for rust-sills, hat channels, floors, rear cross member. I hate body work which can end up being a black hole. As above check the frame. Spring hanger areas and front cross member/frame horns are the most frequent areas of failure.

    If it runs, stops, and turns, put some miles on it before tearing into it. If in good condition and properly adjusted, the stock brakes are adequate. I put many of thousands of miles on those without any incidents. Putting on those miles will also give you a good indication if the 4 speed conversion is something you really want to do. Not exactly a bolt-in even if you could find a stock T98. A T90A with a crappy 2.79:1 first gear can do a surprising amount of off roading with 5.38 gears. And there is always the bolt-in T90C option.
     
  9. Feb 11, 2021
    jeepdaddy2000

    jeepdaddy2000 Active Member

    Eagle Point oregon
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    Brakes:
    Dual MC is (IMHO) a must. I lost a front brake line on my 71 on a mild hill climb (limb flipped up and ripped it off) and thanked God driving out of the woods and all the way home I had the rears working.
    11" self adjusting brakes off a Waggy will be a virtual direct swap. Front disks with the stock rears is also an upgrade, although I prefer self adjusting brakes regardless.

    Transmission:
    The question is if you plan on doing a gear swap in the rear. 5.38's are super low, especially with smaller tires. If you keep the gearing, I suggest an OD unit in lieu of a transmission upgrade. If you plan on going taller (4.27) and are still looking for a swap, then a smoother shifting transmission, either 3 or 4 speed would be nice. The T90 will still work with these gears, but first will be a bit taller, which may be a problem depending on what wheeling you are dong. If you go with "highway" gearing, such as 3.73's, then a truck transmission would be great (again, maybe not necessary, depending), as the compound low first gear will negate the taller gearing for slow speed work.

    Steering: The Ross unit is marginal at best. It is serviceable if maintained, but is prone to slop and won't take any suspension or tire upgrades well.
    I suggest at a minimum, a one piece tie rod.
    A best case scenario is a swap to either a manual or power Saginaw box.

    Suspension:
    Old stock springs are usually flat and ride like a buckboard. While not necessary and perhaps against the concept, a mild lift in the 2.5" range will provide a better ride and some room for any upgrades.

    Electrical:
    An upgrade to an alternator.

    Oddities:
    Check the frame for cracking around the spring hangers
    Check all under body mounts for cracking.
    Check under the windshield frame for rust.
     
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  10. Feb 11, 2021
    Alan28

    Alan28 Well-Known Member 2022 Sponsor

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    There are many ways to use a CJ5, because there are various kind of this Jeep.
    It depends where you live, if you have nice weather...and nice countryside.
    Some people have modified CJ5 with big engines and top drivetrain to be able to drive 4X4 in.. Moab, etc..; It is expensive, big tires, etc..;
    You can have a nice CJ5 in top quality, able to cross America...
    And you can have a CJ5 like mine, good for visiting your place, 10 miles, 20 miles, but maybe it is easier to use a "normal" car for this.
    The CJ5 (4 cyl) is good for small roads, tracks, visit villages around, shopping to farms.
    It is slow driving, it can be dangerous (roll-over) if you want to take risks...
    In USA, you have CJ5 cheap to repair, and expensive as a new car. It is not the same thing.
    A good advantage is to have a toy with no roof, windshield down, to go to the beach in Summer..
    There are so many CJ5... sans RBcolza 1.JPG
     
  11. Feb 11, 2021
    Alan28

    Alan28 Well-Known Member 2022 Sponsor

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    I would add that it is nice to drive slowly, 30, 40 miles per hour on calm roads.
    Advantage of being retired.
    When I was working I had appointments, planes to take, I uded rented cars or my motorcycle ... the speed limits or signs on the road were not my problem, I had to be in time and...preferently, a little bit in advance to be polite.
    So I am so happy to drive slow, let hurried people pass...
    I nevdr had any accidents, lucky me, but with some millimeters of difference at high speed I still feel the Black Shadow over me.:shock:
    Nice to drive my CJ 5.
     
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  12. Feb 11, 2021
    landy

    landy New Member

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    Excellent info! Thanks, all.
     
  13. Feb 11, 2021
    Jw60

    Jw60 Sitting up n buckled down. 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    It is a waste of money to do anything narrower than 4.27:1 with the 4cyl the engine just can't use it. Stick with the stock ratio for now. I drove my 4cyl everywhere... it just wasn't fast at it.

    11" drum or disk dual reservoir is a minimum. It's not you it's everyone else.
    Fyi the "big caliper" Chevy brakes on all 4 corners even manual without vacuum booster is plenty.

    Steering is high maintenance as is.
    I'd love me an old 110 since the British body is a bit easier on the eyes... and back.
     
  14. Feb 12, 2021
    Rick Whitson

    Rick Whitson Detroit Area 2024 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    My advice to you is buy it drive it the way it is before you start changing things. You may change your mind on what you want to do first after you have it for a while.
    You will want to upgrade from the 9" brakes, above all you need Brakes. But a jeep only weighs 2,500 lbs. and only goes 50mph, so you don't need to overkill brakes. A duel master cylinder is a good thing for safety. If it has 5:38 axels you probably would want tall tires, to off set the low gearing. From there you have a lot of Options to consider, you might find a set of newer axels, for cheap, that will give you the bigger brakes and a higher axel ratio. It is a fun hobby with all kinds of Choices, and the people you meet here like to help you reach your goals. Welcome from Michigan. Good Luck.
     
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  15. Feb 12, 2021
    dozerjim

    dozerjim Member

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    x2,well said...welcome from NY
     
  16. Feb 12, 2021
    givemethewillys

    givemethewillys Been here since sparky ran it. 2022 Sponsor

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    Agree with the above. Early jeep have a ton of character, but before you start snowballing a bunch of changes, make sure it reliably starts, turns and stops. Everything else is secondary.

    It's super easy to end up with a long wishlist of "upgrades" (although the 4-speed is great, I think it should be way down your list), and end up with a bunch of parts that you sell at a loss a few years from now when you get bored and frustrated.
     
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  17. Feb 12, 2021
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs

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    This. Agreed 200%
    This applies to ANY old car with a single master cylinder. I've twice lost all brakes on a single system...once while headed down a 7% grade with a heavily loaded pickup :shock:
     
  18. Feb 12, 2021
    Glenn

    Glenn Kinda grumpy old man Staff Member

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    Where do you live? What kind of roads, terrain would you be riding in?
     
  19. Feb 12, 2021
    Ol Fogie

    Ol Fogie 74 cj5 304, 1943 mb

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    I must completely agree with tim's view on the selection. The intermediates are much better in many ways, driveability, road manners, many upgrades will be factory standard or more easily accomplished.
    On the other hand there is just something about the sound of an old flat head or an odd fire v-6 tooling around in the woods. I absolutely love my ol MB with the windshield down and crawling around thru the woods on an autumn day. Life just doesn't get any better than that. Must be something caused by the jeep fever. good luck in your decision, you really can't go wrong as long as it's a Jeep.
    :flag::beer:
     
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  20. Feb 13, 2021
    Alan28

    Alan28 Well-Known Member 2022 Sponsor

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    This is said!
     
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