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198 Fireball V6

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by Sparky74cj, Jan 16, 2011.

  1. Jun 2, 2020
    Bigdaddy13

    Bigdaddy13 Member

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    Here's my adapter between the bellhousing and the transmission.

    IMG_7547.JPG
     
  2. Jun 2, 2020
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    Eureka ! Now that makes perfect sense to me , Nick.
    I had no idea that Trans-Dapt ever made such a beast.
    I certainly did not expect to see a 198 bell with a built one piece adapter.
    You just gotta love the quality of the old Trans-Dapt adapters.
    So bigdaddy I would expect that adapter to be 2-5/8” thickness and if it’s aluminum it could possibly be a Trans-Dapt too.
     
  3. Jun 2, 2020
    Bigdaddy13

    Bigdaddy13 Member

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    Yes, correct! Just went out and measured. 2-5/8" thick. So, what I'm taking from this, is that a T98 will work, but i still have to find one with a specific input.

    One option i’m considering is a rebuilt tranny from Herm’s. Herm sells either a:

    1. Jeep/Ford pattern With the 10 spline 1-1/8(1.125”) input shaft with D18 adaptor
    2. A F134, 4 cylinder specific setup with a shorter 15/16th's input shaft.

    • Am I going to want to pull the tranny no matter what to confirm my input shaft length?
    • Or could it only be one type or the other based on the adapter used?
    • I feel like what i’m hearing is that its not the short 15/16’s input?
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2020
  4. Jun 2, 2020
    Richard in AZ

    Richard in AZ I just don't understand the like of patina

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    Once I took stock of all the 225 parts I have compared to the 198 stuff I decided to go with the 225....not sure what I am going to do with the 198 stuff....right now it is taking up one of my engine stands and a corner of the shop...

    Richard
     
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  5. Jun 2, 2020
    Bigdaddy13

    Bigdaddy13 Member

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    Yup and even as I reply to this I'm considering all my options. I HAVE a nice-running 198, but I am by no means married to it and have resolved to not going to pour a lot of money into the Fireball V6.

    I'd much rather run a dauntless or an F134, since there is so much more of an aftermarket for those motors, plus it's more original than the 198 (Even though it's likely been in there for quite a while), but I don't want a project that will sit around all year long waiting for a heart transplant.
     
  6. Jun 2, 2020
    Bigdaddy13

    Bigdaddy13 Member

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    So awesome. Thanks for posting these, Richard!
     
  7. Jun 2, 2020
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

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    Big daddy I still don’t know enough about the standard (factory) Buick 198 bell to determine exactly what maindrive and adapter will work with that your bell.
    Richard has a custom bell intended for the 912361 main drive gear .
    At a minimum you will need some sort of adapter but I can’t determine that without knowing your bell housing.
     
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  8. Jun 2, 2020
    Bigdaddy13

    Bigdaddy13 Member

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    Understood, thanks for laying out the data so far, for me. I'll see about getting more info/pictures.
     
  9. Jun 2, 2020
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor

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    Nick, There are two GM bellhousings that were used in the 215's. One was used exclusivley with a 3 speed for '61, and it shares the same bolt pattern as the T90. This bellhousing was also used with the 198. The other bellhousing was used for '62 and '63, and it has a dual trans bolt pattern, one for the 3 speed that fits the T90, and the other is the wide pattern for the T10 (or Muncie) 4 speed. I have examples of both, but only the '61 version I could get a photo of. These are very shallow bellhousings, and the short 4 cyl T90 input fits perfectly in the pilot bearing of the 198/215 with no modifications, allowing the T90 to mate directly with no adapters. The downside to this is it moves the engine into the firewall unless you move the trans/TC way forward of the original location. Ask me how I know!

    Richard's bellhousing (post #37) is an aftermarket adapter type bellhousing, not factory GM! This bellhousing has built in the 2 5/8" "adapter" into the bellhousing, so it now requires the T90J wagon/truck input shaft. These aftermarket pieces were quite common in the '60s and early '70s.
    -Donny
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2020
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  10. Jun 3, 2020
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

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    Donny, Thanks for the 198 bellhousing details.
    So yeah that info all makes sense and does not detract any from what I had surmised.
    The standard T98-A should bolt up direct to either of the GM 198 bellhousings via the Jeep factory T-98-A adapter plate.
    That method will utilize the 15/16” diameter main drive gear.
    Another method then also becomes possible where the 2-5/8” adapter plate may also be added in between and provide additional 2-5/8” length of drivetrain length.
    With this method the input shaft must be changed out for a 917341 maindrive gear.
    That gear being 2-5/8” longer and 1-1/8” diameter.
    From my experiences mating the T18 to the Dauntless 225; I would say that the 2-5/8” additional length is more than required and becomes too long for a flatfender cj.
    The Standard T98-A is near the ideal length bolted to a any of those Buick v-6 engines.
    Bolt them near direct to the bell via factory T98-A adapter plate.

    Better yet... scrap the T98-A and install a T18 without using any adapter plate and go direct to the bellhousing.
     
  11. Jun 3, 2020
    Bigdaddy13

    Bigdaddy13 Member

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    Again, very much appreciate all the input.
     
  12. Jun 3, 2020
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

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    Not sure what you may need to drill/tap in order to mate the Jeep or Ford T18 direct to the 198 bell.
    May be able to drill the transmission or tap the bell to fit them.
    There are 2 different mdg’s that can be used to provide correct maindrive SO length.
     
  13. Jul 1, 2020
    Bigdaddy13

    Bigdaddy13 Member

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    some questions:

    Is there a reason not to use a GM pattern t18? One like this? Rebuilt T-18 (GM Pattern) 4 Speed, $1200 | Herm The Overdrive Guy

    • Bolt pattern
      • I guess I'm thinking that I could remove my 2 5/8" spacer, and attempt to bolt the GM pattern T18 to my 198 Bell housing, since the rear of my bell is GM pattern that a GM t18 shares, correct?
    • Length
      • Does this difference in length cause an issue? I'm thinking that removing the spacer, effectively mitigates the difference in length between the t90 and the t18, other than .3" or so...
      • Current overall length - Spacer + T90 (2.625" + 9.0") = 11.625"
      • Future overall length with no spacer, just the T18 = 11.9"
    • Input shaft specs
      • Also, Since my t90 uses a 2 5/8" adapter, I'm assuming that my input shaft is around 9 1/4" inches long and 10 x 1 1/8" spline (basically a t90j setup). if I subtract the 2.625 (2 5/8") spacer, an input shaft of about 6.5-6.625" long would be required, correct?
    I know I might be missing something, but I feel like it's possible that would mean that the GM t18 from From Herm's site (link above), COULD possibly bolt right up?:

    "This transmission is completely rebuilt and comes with the 10 spline 1 1/8″ input shaft and the adapter for a D-18 small hole or a D-18 or a D-20 large hole t/f case.The T-18 is a heavy duty truck style 4 speed transmission with a granny low 1st gear. It was used in 3/4 ton and larger trucks from 1965-1991. This transmission has a 1 1/16th inch diameter input shaft(I'd have to confirm that this is 1 1/8") with a length of 6 1/2 inches from the face of the transmission. They have a total length of 11.9 inches and weigh 145 pounds.This transmission comes complete with: shift tower, shift handle, new adapter kit, & torque lock sliders. Torque lock sliders are specially machined shift collars with a groove to prevent slipping out of gear in the future."

    1st Gear 6.40 (6.32) to 1
    2nd Gear 3.09 to 1
    3rd Gear 1.69 to 1
    4th Gear 1.00 to 1


     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020
  14. Jul 2, 2020
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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    There's no "native" GM pattern T-18. I presume Herm is selling a Ford transmission that's been modified to work with GM bell housings. Novak has a page on how to do this - not difficult. You still need to adapt the transmission output to your transfer case; Herm is an Advance Adapters retailer, so I expect he's using their adapter on the output.
    The Novak Guide to the Adapting Ford Style Transmissions to GM Engines

    With any truck 4-speed, the shifter location is different and you'll need to modify the floors to clear the bigger transmission. Overall length will be close, but I would not assume an "easy" change until I had the pieces on hand and mocked them up in the chassis.

    I have to read the above posts closely; are you sure that the 198 bell is the same as a 225 bell in depth and transmission pattern? Just skimming, it seems like there were a few different bells discussed. You'd need for the bell to have the same depth and transmission pattern as the 225, which uses a generic GM BOP bell. I'm sure that Herm is assuming you will use the generic GM BOP or Chvy bell housing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
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  15. Jul 2, 2020
    Bigdaddy13

    Bigdaddy13 Member

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    No native GM pattern: good to know! I’ll dig more into this.
    Tcase output: yes, his case has either a small hole or large hole adapter

    Shifter location, floors, crossmember, etc: yes, aware of these mods. I don’t consider them easy, just consider myself well-informed. More concerned with parts mating, i think?

    198 bell depth vs 225 bell depth:
    Good question. I’m making two assumptions here, at this point. That A) my t90 is using a t90J input shaft along with the 2 5/8 adapter which allows me to estimate the input shaft length, and B) that my 198 bell has a GM pattern on the back of it. The pictures of 198/215 bells seem to be a standard GM pattern?

    Thanks for the thoughtful post. Much appreciated!


     
  16. Jul 2, 2020
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

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    I had a couple 198s years ago - and had different bells for them. The last one was the same depth as the 225. The first was not and had an additional plate adapting to the tranny.

    Measure your Bell and post pics with the tape if possible. Lay it face down on the floor and run the tape through for depth.
     
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  17. Jul 2, 2020
    Bigdaddy13

    Bigdaddy13 Member

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    Bell is still attached to both the engine, my 2 5/8's adapter and the t90. I'm trying to plan for a winter-time project. :)

    Bell seems to measure right at 6", if I'm measuring correctly. 8 5/8 with the adapter (best i can do with it still in the rig)
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
  18. Jul 3, 2020
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor

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    Keep in mind there were two GM 198/215 bellhousings, both the same depth (just single or dual bolt pattern), and there were at least two, maybe more aftermarket conversion bellhousings. The GM parts will have a long part number cast in.
    -Donny
     
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  19. Jul 3, 2020
    Bigdaddy13

    Bigdaddy13 Member

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    Thanks, Donny.

    i guess i’m assuming this does not have a dual pattern becuase if i understand correctly, wasnt one of those patterns the same pattern as the t90?

    meaning if it was a dual pattern, they could have foregone the adapter and just gone with an t90A or a T90C?

    just a thought. I’m sure the answer is probably, hard to tell without seeing it. :)

    i’ll look around for a GM part number, thanks!
     
  20. Jul 4, 2020
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor

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    I have both versions of the GM 198/215 bellhousings. I used my first one about 35 years ago when I swapped a 215 into my Tux. It is a very shallow bellhousing that mates the T90A or T90C short 4 cyl input shaft with no adapters whatsoever. That bellhousing has the dual pattern for both the T90 and GM 3/4 speeds.
    The downside is you have to move your engine/trans/Tc forward several inches in the frame to keep the engine out of the firewall. I actually went the other direction, cutting the firewall drastically to move the engine back about 5"-6" further back. I used a T90C and a lighter flywheel. My gas pedal was mounted to the back of the cylinder head. With the alloy block and the setback, I had nearly 50/50 weight distribution, and was just under 2000lbs with 1/2 tank of gas. This was built mainly for the sand/beach and performed very well.
    -Donny
     
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