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Dj-5c Restoration - 3s + 1w

Discussion in 'Intermediate CJ-5/6/7/8' started by Jeff Bromberger, Jul 5, 2019.

  1. Apr 26, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    More transmission fun for ya, m'kay?

    Since I am only doing this once, and trying to do it right, I am looking at my output shaft support. Now, you'd think that it can't see that much wear. There's a bearing pretty much on each side of this. But, looking seriously at it, there's so much galling, I cannot help but wonder where it came from:
    Trans_Galled_Support.jpg

    How can stuff like this happen when the unit is drenched in oil? What a depressing thing to look at, and it gets sadder when you run your fingers over it. There's one sharp ridge and a few potholes - crocus cloth wouldn't stand a chance.

    So, let's try to buy one. After all, I had such wonderful luck finding that bearing. Would you believe that this is a common and very readily accessible part? What's the odds of that? So it arrives before Thursday. Then the whole thing goes back together.

    I'm getting itchy and it isn't fleas. I wanna feel the wind in my hair before much longer...
     
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  2. Apr 27, 2020
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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    Jeff, you have any idea of what that one owner did with your Jeep? You'd expect agency vehicles (like USPS trucks) to get regular maintenance, and be repaired if they fail. And agencies turn over their vehicles routinely, just to avoid unscheduled downtime. Some of these Jeeps were sold for private rural mail carrier/contractor service, where I would not be surprised that they got run into the ground. I suspect these contractors bid for their routes and run on a shoestring, and shoddy or absent maintenance and repair seems likely.
     
  3. Apr 27, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    This has always been a challenging question. The more I uncover, the less I know about the, ahem, individual who owned it. Forgetting the kill switch in the ash tray, the rewiring of the heater fan switch to jump power across the solenoid, the second seat held down to the floor on one 1/4 inch bolt, the baby blue shag carpeting that was glued down in back, the molten (in leaky rain water) subwoofer cabinet (minus speakers), the cracked thermostat housing and missing thermostat, and the tow ball hitch bolted to the rear bumper - that's a lot to overlook - I just found the biggest sign:

    I have 3 wheels that are 14 inch and one wheel that is 15 inch.

    Ponder that for a moment. Maybe a bit longer.

    That'll certainly mess up your steering or drive geometry a bit, eh? I am now grumpy that I did not label which wheel came from which corner, because I'd love to know how this Jeep even moved in a straight line.

    When this left the USPS fleet, whomever took possession of it in Oklahoma must've held a grudge because the work done to drive this into the ground is amazing. We all care for our rides - to the PO, this was less than a ride and more of an upgrade from a pair of roller skates.

    Did I show this picture to you?

    Trans_Rear_Clutch_Steels.jpg

    Those are the steels from the rear clutch assembly. In the A727, this clutch is always engaged/compressed except for Park, Neutral, Reverse. And that is RUST you're seeing on the surface. I first thought it was friction material coming off the intercalated clutch disks but I was wrong.

    Latest suspicion is that there was a transmission replacement after it left the USPS, it was a poor (inexpensive) rebuild, it left out parts and leaked like crazy, and when the fluid was gone, it just kept running until it didn't. By then, parts were gouged and galled, and as it sat the rest of the insides that weren't aluminum were rusting away.

    Does anybody remember the story of "Susie the Little Blue Coupe"? I am starting to feel it about this poor Jeep right now.
     
  4. Apr 27, 2020
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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    Run out of oil and parked seems likely.
     
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  5. May 2, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    And, poof, we're back and we're stuck in the middle of things.

    So, when we last left things, we were pretty close to putting it back together. Well, there was one thing I forgot to tackle. It's the valve body. Now, there's nothing to replace in there. Since I am not installing a shift kit, this is an exercise in take it all apart, blast the crap out of the crevasses and re-assemble. We're doing good until minor heart attack hits. It turns out that I am wrong in my belief that there's no moving parts in this area of the transmission. Those ball bearings (which are more like ball check valves) can wear things out. Here, look for yourself:
    Trans_Separator_Plate.jpg

    I'm looking at the two sections at the bottom. You can see two parallel raceways for the balls. It lives in either the upper position or the lower position, and it uses that runway over the moat (so to speak) to move from position to position. And even if you wonder how much damage a ball bearing can do, now you know. The one on the right is seriously worn down. Not enough to bust through the plate but it's certainly something to wonder about in future installments. FWIW: The book calls this normal wear and says it's not bad enough to replace.

    So I swallow hard, clean things up and put it all together again. I have to say that it's hard to wrap my head around a two level maze. One day, I need to try and understand the routing, but for now, it doesn't matter and I just want this done.

    And then we now have everything ready to put it all together. Start with the tail extension. Put in the new bearing, packed in Vaseline. Retaining ring goes in and that's that. Then the outer oil seal goes in. Well, let's just say that I tried to make it go in before it got all out of shape. I ended up beating the living snot out of that seal and no matter what I did, I could not get it to fit (much less seat). That's another issue for another day. Let's keep moving.

    New rear support plate is installed (and torqued). Turns out that the galling is from the rear Reverse/Low drum. It seems the drum fits tightly over the support, and on the outside of the drum collar goes the over-running/sprag clutch. I polish the rear drum, lubricate it all with more Vaseline and all seems OK. New sprag clutch parts are installed - no point puttering around with used ones. Then the Low/Reverse servo (plunger) goes in, followed by the belt. Output shaft takes a it of prayerful wiggling and voodoo, but seats pleasantly enough. Drum goes back in after being dressed, and it hold the rear band in place. Then the adjusters go on and we're happy. Rear gear packs go in without hitch, especially with me replacing all of the thrust bearings. The last thing to go in is the retaining clip and the whole rear end of the transmission is done. Easier than I thought.

    Next comes some air testing. Putting the two clutch packs on the oil pump and hitting it with 40PSI air. The front clutch is supposed to make noise when it activates, but it doesn't. It's odd to see the clutches all push together like that! And the silent rear clutch makes the noise as it applies, too. It's all magic to me, but I smile that the parts I've done the most work on are functional.

    So, with the rear done, the two clutch packs and oil pump have to be inserted. That takes even more jiggery-pokery, but it eventually all settles into place. The front band and kickdown servo go in without a hitch. The oil pump seats without problems, and it's all torqued down. Tomorrow, I adjust the bands and re-air test the transmission again to make sure that we're all doing the right dance steps in the right order.

    Of course, I can't do anything until I get that rear seal in. Sigh. Bust open the catalog and look for a part number. And guess what surprises jump out? Did you know that the standard rear seal (for a long extension 727) is too big for the short tailed model? Nothing I could have done to that oil seal to make it fit - the rebuild kit was packaged for the usual configuration and I, being a Postal Jeep guy, clearly have to understand that things are going to be different (also read as: hard for me). I order the part from Rock Auto - 4 bucks and it's here next week.

    I will finish putting the last touches on the unit before the seal gets here, and then it'll be time to mount engine back to transmission and install them into the waiting Jeep frame.
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2020
  6. May 13, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    More narrative than anything. If you dislike story telling, might as well skip this one.

    New rear seal arrived. Popped in with little effort - a far cry from the nightmare I had with the "wrong" tail seal. That's a relief. So, with everything sealed, we attach the tail housing and put on the rear yoke. I now have a transmission that looks right!

    Band adjustment is difficult. It's only 72 inch-pounds, but the band uses a 4-sided adjuster. And it is an odd size. My sockets don't fit; the 12 pointer is just too small, and I don't have an 8 pointer (how I got 8-point sockets, I will never know) in that size. So I have to guess with a wrench. I make sure that the servo has to move a small but visible amount to engage the band. And when engaged, it's maxed out, so that's a good thing.

    Air testing comes next. The book mentions four tests. First two are easy - you pressurize ports on the body and watch the servo pistons move. And when the pistons move, they cause the bands to engage. This went super peachy because nothing can go wrong here. If it doesn't move, it's got a seal issue. If the band goes popping off the adjusters, then you didn't understand 72 inch-pounds. The last two air tests are more iffy. They, once again, pressurize the clutch packs to make sure that everything engages. The rear clutch does it's thing without hesitation. You see the clutch retainer move/seat as pressure is applied. Finally, the front clutch - the one that handles the 2-3 shift. Well, the air goes in and there's a tremendous amount of air leakage. What? Where did that come from?

    Tear the front off the works - oil pump, front band adjuster, front band - to get to the clutch pack. Pull that apart and check the new seals. They look good - nothing out of place. So it all goes back together and I try the compressed air again. And with careful inspection, I notice something new. There's a machined slot on the bearing surface. The oil that's pumped into the piston area can come out the slot to lubricate the bearing. But since the slot is large compared to the size of air molecules, I don't build up enough pressure to overcome those 9 return coil springs. Yeah, the air comes flying out the side without moving anything. Sigh.

    Put it all together again. Clutch goes in, band in and on, with adjustment again. Then we re-lube the oil pump seal and place it back in the shell. And it goes well until it is torque wrench time. One of the seven bolts won't hold tension. It's sort of stripped. Yeesh.

    Well, nothing I can do for that, so let's move along. Valve body goes on. Pan gasket is put in place and new bolts are inserted and torqued. Except for one of the 14, which is stripped so big I could shove a zucchini through it. Clearly, this bolt hole has seen no action in ages.

    And I still have to puzzle out the speedometer gizmos.
    Trans_Is_Complete.jpg
    That's where we are right now. I'm torn about whether to bolt it up and try it or tear it all down again, get the housing Heli-Coiled and then try again. And that doesn't even cover the "will the unit actually work now?" concerns I have. Oh well.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2020
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  7. May 15, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    Bouncing back to electrical, now that things are coming together...

    My old 1974 vintage jeep had an ammeter. We talked about pulling it, and so I did. Didn't want 90+ amps crawling around under my knees. So, I looked at the TSM and the drawings provided a few weeks ago and made one of my own, just so that I could make sure I understood things. Here it is:
    Remove_Ammeter.jpeg

    The red lines are what's there currently, and what I am going to replace. The green lines are new, and they'll be taking the place of the old ammeter. Does this look right? What about the fusible link? The old TSM shows that I should have had one, but it was long gone. I put it where I think it goes. Make sense?

    Finally, there's work to be done on the (primitive at best) fuse panel. Here's the TSM's schematic:
    Ammeter_Fuse_Panel.jpg

    The red items are being removed, as I don't have that old transmission any longer. The yellow box is the new part - instead of feeding this directly from the alternator/ammeter, I will be feeding this from the junction block. Finally, I plan on filling the hole in the console with a combined voltmeter/USB charger. Does it make sense to run it from the left side of this fuse panel? It is in the same power circuit as the fan and such (accessory and run, but not full time power like the brake lights).

    Another goofy question... This jeep does not have the alternator idiot light to say that it isn't charging. Some speedometer clusters have that, others don't. Mine doesn't. Is it worth it to buy a newer generation cluster so that the light is available? And if I go that route, I come across the issue that my mechanical oil pressure gauge won't trigger the "NO OIL PRESSURE" light. I presume that I can throw some sort of electrical sender in line with the mechanical one if I really wanted this thing to work? Any suggestions on who makes a good cluster these days?

    Thanks - we're getting close!
     
  8. Jun 3, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    Been a while since I've updated the world, so here's the latest.

    As of this past weekend, I've completed the second S - STOP. The complete brake system has been replaced, stem to stern. Every steel line, every hose, wheel cylinder, shoe, drum, you name it. It was bled (with the help of my loving and understanding wife) and we're pressurized with DOT5 fluid, just like the Jeep had the day it rolled off of the AM General line and into the USPS fleet.

    My only concern is the way the front brakes move. When it comes to the rears, when the pedal is depressed, both shoes move out to the drum. The fronts are another story - only the front shoe moves out, as if the rear spring is too tight. It isn't that the wheel cylinder is frozen, because if I drop the rear return spring altogether, then the rear shoe moves out first.

    I have to believe that once they are in use and adjusted correctly, when the front shoe hits the drum, the rear shoe will move (because it's easier to push out the rear shoe than to push the front shoe through the steel brake drum. :D

    And that means that now I am up to the point where I need to bolt the engine to the transmission and put them back into the frame.
     
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  9. Jun 3, 2020
    ojgrsoi

    ojgrsoi Retired 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    I don't think I'd replace the cluster if everything on it functions.
    You can buy an indicator light for both alt & oil from O'Reilly fairly cheap. You can either drill small holes in the dash or put a small piece of angle aluminum under the dash with holes for the indicator lights.
    For your oil pressure you can get a sending unit that works both the gauge and a light. The one I used on my F model was stamped G for gauge (not ground) and something else for the light. This was an electric oil pressure gauge
     
  10. Jun 4, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    I see that I left a story out of the narrative. If you'll all forgive me - here it is

    <wavy lines go through your screen as we flash back 3 weeks>

    It's time to fill the engine with oil and prime that oil pump. But what can I use to turn that oil pump over? So I truck on out to the local Harbor Freight and buy the longest Chinese made screwdriver I could. Brought it home and proceeded to grind the handle off of it, and then chuck it into my drill.

    Oil filter goes on. I applaud myself that I remembered something so simple, but easily overlooked.

    First quart of oil going in. And coming out. Yeesh - I forgot to tighten and torque the rocker cover bolts. What a simple screw-up and a mess all over the floor. So much for the applause....

    Now that we're torqued down, we hit the oil cans again, and life looks good. I drop in an extra container of the Lucas Zinc additive for break-in mode. Seems all good. I let that sit for about an hour for all of the oil to percolate down. Looking good. No drips out the front at the timing cover seal. that I can see. We're all ready to go ahead with the priming.

    I put the screwdriver into the slot on the oil pump and hit the trigger.

    YAAAHHHH!

    I forgot to do something with the oil pressure port. It was wide open and the pump started spraying oil all over me (I kept the stuff from hitting the far side of the garage). Who would have thought that the damn thing would prime in the first 5 seconds? Why do I always read about 30 minute jobs to get any oil flowing? Put the drill down right quickly, spread cat litter all over, run upstairs, take a shower. Notice that there's still oil on my skin. Take a second shower, this time using Dawn instead of soap. If it works for the baby seals and ducks, why not me? Quack.

    Pants go into washer, soaking in Lestoil, hoping that most of the stuff comes out. It did a 50/50 job.

    End of Day One.

    Three days later (once my pride had healed): inserted the fitting for a manual oil pressure pump. Pump goes on and that should be that. I sweep up the cat litter and notice that there's a small drip coming from the oil drain plug. Guess I need a new washer/gasket on there.

    Make sure the oil is at the right level and then hit the drill again. She goes, and there's no more spraying oil. What a miracle of sorts. ANd the pressure gauge shows 30-40 PSI with the drill running at a relatively low speed. That's making me happy. I keep the drill going, on for a minute, off for a minute, for about 30 cycles. That should get oil pretty much anywhere that the pump could. It isn't doing the splash lubrication that running the engine will, but it's enough for me right now.

    And, now that we don't need access to the oil pump any longer, I get out the new HEI distributor. I left the engine at TDC on Cylinder One when I closed it up. A quick check shows that to still be the case. And the timing marks are pretty close - it looks like they have some level of advance on them to start with. I pick a contact to be cylinder one and then lower the distributor in. I watch as the rotor turns about half a cylinder's worth as it goes down. Out comes the distributor, I set the rotor back about half a cylinder and then set it in. And now it matches the electrode that I've designated for One. Life is good.

    Until I realize that the oil pump portion of the distributor hasn't meshed in. Out it comes, again, and I go back in with my screwdriver/drill tool and twiddle with the gear alignment. Reset the distributor and, lo and behold, it settles in. I hand tighten the distributor clamp - won't bother tightening it until I get the engine installed and have the timing set. We're looking good.

    I next install the spark plugs, each with anti-seize and tightened correctly. And then the wires, as I follow the firing sequence. Now, we wait until I get the engine mated to the transmission and installed in the Jeep again.

    All that's left to do on the block is plumbing. The steel line from the fuel pump to the carburetor and the various and sundry vacuum hoses between the manifold, the ported plug on the carb, the two CTO valves, the vacuum advance on the distributor and the EGR.

    End of Day Two.

    <screen stops being all wavy as we return to the present>

    In case it matters, the Lestoil keeps getting more and more oil out of my pants, but it's only about 80% clean now, and that'll probably be the best it gets from here.
     
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  11. Jun 5, 2020
    ojgrsoi

    ojgrsoi Retired 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    It’s so easy when you use Lestoil. Didn’t know that was still manufactured.
     
  12. Jun 11, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    And another change in plans before going on. I decided that, before hanging the gas tank, I should change out the rubber buffers that isolate the body from the frame. In the DJ series, there are 12 of them - four in the driver compartment (through the floor), two right behind the step to the rear (accessible only from underneath), two in the middle of the bed (using carriage bolts) and four between the back wall and the rear bumper.

    I figured that the rubber was probably dry by this point, so it was worth the effort. Took an air drill to get the front four bolts apart. The next four were in confined spaces, so it was all manual. Last four, well, I snapped two of those bolts, one was missing and one came loose.

    Jumping around, here's what I found:
    Body_Mount_Collection.jpg

    Talk about your collection of baked dry rubber. But there was something I didn't notice until I really looked closely:
    Body_Mount_Detail.jpg

    I have a sinking suspicion that I now realize what these were made from. And the next person who uses the term "fleet vehicle" in my neighborhood gets a tire iron to the oompa loompas. The USPS probably did one replacement and used whatever they had available. Which would also explain the cheap steel bolts that held parts of this together. I read about how the drivers of yore always complained about the lack of comfort in these jeeps. Mayhaps this explains more than part of that bad feeling.

    Using a bottle jack, I was able to lift the body from the frame just enough to remove these old tire chips and then insert in the new urethane isolators. I put in new Class 8 hardware to put it back together. Now that there's nothing left to do in the rear, I can hang the fuel tank with sender and the new fuel lines. The job was easier than I expected. For once...
     
  13. Jun 11, 2020
    Fireball

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  14. Jun 11, 2020
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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    This is 100% typical. Jeep used tire sections for body insulators in CJs and Utility vehicles, maybe later too. Nothing wrong with them - possible they were using up old stock. The intermediate Jeeps did not get them, but earlier CJs definitely. Not sure what year they ended this practice.

    Possible USPS picked parts from earlier Jeeps as an easy sub, and your local factory parts outlet provided them. Or they could have come from the factory. Functionally nothing wrong with them. Also think the class 8 bolts don't provide any advantage - the body will rip out before a generic bolt in this location will break.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2020
  15. Jun 11, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    I'm disappointed to hear that these tire patches were considered "normal" at the time these Jeeps were built. While I am not one to ask, there is still plenty to wonder about. While this may have started in the WW2 days, where everything rubber was under ration, it made sense to re-use worn or damaged tires. But once the Pacific Theatre calmed down and synthetic rubbers became available from American laboratories, why would you continue to use this technique when parts that could be considered softer on the posterior of the operator might be more attractive?

    I also understand about the choice in bolt quality here. I just know that one of these days, when I'm better funded, the body is coming off the frame for a complete rotisserie treatment. I'd rather pay more now and use bolts (with anti-seize) that may not rot to death before that day comes.

    Consider this another of those learning moments - existing assembly line knocking out cheap but passable parts is better than building a new line to make parts that might be better than the existing ones. I'd love to ask the "Intermediate" era engineers why they stopped the practice, considering it had been considered "serviceable" since the ancient days...
     
  16. Jun 11, 2020
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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    Mmm. Sorry if it seemed like criticism. It's nothing that reflects on you, Jeff. It's just what they did. From a functional viewpoint, these parts work fine. If you prefer the more modern and tidy urethane spacers, I'm glad you are replacing with what pleases you.

    Back at the Jeep dealer, I put away parts that look exactly like what you removed. 100% Jeep Corp factory part, and not from the war era. They had a 6xxxxx part number - which is post-war - though I don't remember the exact number. Neatly punched from tire tread, not some one-off part.

    Any body lift makes more of a difference in structural strength than the bolt quality, I think. I have seen (Grand) Wagoneer bodies come completely off the frame in bad wrecks (in pictures). This example had maybe a 3" body lift? The bolts did not break. I presume the lever-arm increase from a body lift matters more to keeping the body on the frame than the bolt strength.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
  17. Jun 12, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    No offense of any sort taken. I was, ahem, morally upset (if such a thing exists) that rubber mounts were made of tire treads, so I took it upon my self to fix things up. I think I am outgrowing the "I have to make this back to stock" phase and now I am closer to "let's keep it close, but this is MY jeep, so dangitall, I'm modifying it my way!" level of ownership.

    FWIW: I was implying that the tire shreds were dreamed up during the war period and that it just carried over because why re-design something that works.

    FWIW #2: In the package of rubber urethane bumpers, there was a WARNING STICKER that I am supposed to apply to the Jeep reminding the owner that using spacers like this is considered a lift kit, and I should expect it to handle differently that stock. Uh, yeah, I am praying that it'll handle different from stock. :D

    For all of my DJ5 contacts out in other venues, I keep coming back to my friends here at ECJ5 because of the huge depth of knowledge. A little bit more understanding about what was before and after your model certainly helps bring clarity to what may be a cloudy mess of thoughts. And my poor little mail buggy has had it's share of cloudiness at times...
     
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  18. Jun 12, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    Let's keep this rolling, so to speak.

    Now that I've changed the front axle from the older (square) 10 inch model to the newer 11 inch ones, I find that the old 14 inch wheels just don't want to fit any more. They've got an in-turned ridge on the inner hole, and while it matches the 10 inch drums, the axle hub on the 11's bump it and the lug nuts barely have any thread to hold the wheel on.

    I've had suggestions about either grinding the wheel to take that edge off, or lengthening the lug studs so that more is available to the lug nut. I have decided I am ready to toss out the 14 inch wheels and graduate to the easier to find 15 inch models. But here's where the fun comes.

    I read on some of these posts that the old wheels are 15x5.5 sized. When I go looking for these old steel beauties, the only ones I see are considered "vintage" and sell for just between $75 and $100 a piece. That sounds like the proverbial highway robbery. It's the word "Jeep" that seems to set it off. If I don't use that word in the searches, I get thousands of 15 inch wheels but none with the large hub hole in the center.

    Any suggestions on what I keywords I can search on for reasonable wheels? Dreaming of finding plain ol' boring steel rims, like she had out of the factory. Not looking for anything wider, as I've got those small wheel wells to get these babies into...

    Thanks!
     
  19. Jun 12, 2020
    ojgrsoi

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    I have been looking for the same thing without success. If I come across anything reasonable I will let you know.
     
  20. Jun 13, 2020
    sterlclan

    sterlclan Member 2022 Sponsor

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    Does the front hub have a big protruding center like a 4 wheel drive hub or is it more like a car with a tin cap Ofer the bearings? If it has a car style hub a ford rim will fit.
     
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