1. Registration trouble? Please use the "Contact Us" link at the bottom right corner of the page and your issue will be resolved.
    Dismiss Notice

Right 4spd For My Cj ?

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by Buildflycrash, Jul 27, 2019.

  1. Jul 27, 2019
    Buildflycrash

    Buildflycrash More or Less in Line. 2024 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Gulf Breeze FL...
    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,559
    Good Morning all. This SM465 is available locally for $250. What would I look for as far as condition. Shafts spin? Open cover look for broken stuff. Are there “wrong” sm465 transmissions?

    What exactly am I getting myself into with this swap? Adaptors and rebuild kit costs?

    Darn Rubicon trip posts have gotten under my skin. It may take 2 years but I’ll be there.

    Thanks.
     
    tom h likes this.
  2. Jul 27, 2019
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2003
    Messages:
    23,596
    JMO. Why choose the 2WD SM465? $250 seems like a lot for this transmission. To anyone but a Jeeper, it's a big chunk of scrap iron. It will need to be adapted at ca $500 cost for the kit. IIRC, of all the 4-speed candidates, the SM465 is particularly huge and heavy. The SM transmissions (GM Muncie) bolt up to GM engines easily.

    Also appears that mating the SM465 to a Jeep transfer case requires replacement of the main shaft. Thus full disassembly and reassembly is needed.

    A Jeep T-18 is comparable in function; lighter, smaller, already adapted to a Jeep transfer case.

    Pretty sure Chuck (Warloch) has done this swap.

    You could learn all of this on your own ...
    The Novak Guide to the GM Muncie SM465 Transmission
    Adapting the GM Muncie SM465 to the Jeep Dana Models 18 & 20 Transfer Cases
    site:earlycj5.com SM465 conversion - Bing
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2019
  3. Jul 27, 2019
    Buildflycrash

    Buildflycrash More or Less in Line. 2024 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Gulf Breeze FL...
    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,559
    Good thanks for the links. Looks like I forgot to link or photos.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Jul 27, 2019
    Jw60

    Jw60 Sitting up n buckled down. 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Sedalia MO.
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2008
    Messages:
    4,717
    Thinking aloud...
    The t-18 will need a full tear down either way for an input shaft or a main shaft just the same as the sm465 and you would want to inspect and replace bearings reguardless.
    The sm465 doesn't have a close ratio version to worry about counting teeth. Around here a jeep t18 is $1200 so an sm465 is cheaper to run once adapted. Also no difference in reverse location or blocking rings thru the years just a change to one bearing and retainer (I forgot which exactly) but there are less variables overall to care what year make model and color the donor was.

    I would check the countershaft for the 3rd gear spacer it keeps it from popping out of 3rd. That is a extra when going this route some have them from good rebuilds inte past. You can pull the front retainer and bearing covers to inspect the counter shaft bearings. Check the shift tower for slop in the ball and from the finger of the cane to the main part of the cane. Pull the side covers and check for carnage. It is a big ol pig but once adapted the Transfercase is in the same place.
     
    Rich M. likes this.
  5. Jul 27, 2019
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2003
    Messages:
    23,596
    Oof!
     
  6. Jul 27, 2019
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    USA
    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Messages:
    5,798
    I have a 4 speed sm420 in my CJ. I NEVER use 1st gear. I would definite use it on rocky trails or whatever though, just the only rocky stuff I drive over her in DC is up stairs...

    The reason I went SM420 is because I got one for 75 bucks and my T90 was toast. The numbers were a bit better for the sm420 but required a 550$ adapter. SM420's haven't been made since about 1968, so they are old.. The SM465s were made until 1991 and were the replacement of the 420. They are physically larger and will require modifications to your jeep to get it to work.

    I would never install another transmission unless you're was wrecked or there was a specific reason to do so. It can be involved. Clutch linkeage, bell housing mods, driveshaft mods, crossmember mods, input bushing and of course the adapter..

    The next transmission is going to be an automatic...
    The Novak Guide to the GM Muncie SM465 Transmission
     
    Lockman, Rich M. and Buildflycrash like this.
  7. Jul 27, 2019
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2003
    Messages:
    23,596
    Regarding a Jeep T-18 going for $1200 locally (unbelievable to me, unless it's the scarce '77-79 CJ type, then still quite high and maybe not suitable for this application), you can come in way way under that with a FORD T-18 that is then adapted to the Jeep transfer case for ca $500. I would expect to pay like $100 for one of these truck 4-speeds (less would be a bargain, but not super unlikely), whichever one you start with. The Ford NP435 could also be fitted for about the same effort and price (see the Novak page - lots of good info there).

    If you found a cheap Jeep T-18, typically it would be from a V8 J-truck or Wagoneer, and it would have the absurdly long input shaft used with that applications. Most other Jeep applications also have a unique longer input shaft.

    The main advantage of the Jeep T-18 is the transfer case end, not the engine end. The Ford T-18 is just the opposite - easy adaption to Ford or GM engines, but you need to adapt it to the transfer case. With the Jeep T-18, you will need a Ford input shaft and bearing retainer to work with a GM bell. Parts Mike sells these parts as a kit for about $200. The Ford transmissions already have the short input shaft and retainer you need to match a GM bell.

    There are some oddball T-18s. Don't buy the Jeep T-18 used in the '80-up J20 - it's different and unsuitable at both ends. The Jeep T-18 from the '72-76 CJs has different gears (close ratio) and cannot be converted for the GM bell using the Ford input shaft. There were a few '71 CJ V6 T-18s which are close ratio - a great choice if you can accept not having that granny gear. There is also a IHC 4WD T-18 that has a different case and bolt pattern, and cannot be used unless you can make your own adapter or? However, these oddballs (except for the '80-up J20) can be used as parts to make a Jeep-transfer-adapted Ford T-18. Some minor machining required.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2019
    Buildflycrash and Jw60 like this.
  8. Jul 27, 2019
    Buildflycrash

    Buildflycrash More or Less in Line. 2024 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Gulf Breeze FL...
    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,559
    Specifically to follow you around Rubicon in the next year or so. How long until your ready? I could make it next summer If I had to. 2 years would be easier.
     
  9. Jul 27, 2019
    Rich M.

    Rich M. Shoe salesman 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Maryland
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2008
    Messages:
    2,169
    :cool:Ok that's 4 from this side chewing on it....
     
    Buildflycrash and 47v6 like this.
  10. Jul 27, 2019
    Twin2

    Twin2 not him 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Virginia Beach, VA
    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2011
    Messages:
    5,407
    only advise I can give you
    from engine side of bell housing
    bolt bell housing to old transmission
    measure input shaft stick out
    measure depth of splines
    measure stick out of bearing retainer
    transfer bell housing to new transmission and do the steps again
    only reason I can give you is . dauntless flywheel is thick

    swap your asking has been done many times or novak wouldn't be offering a kit
    it's only money and a whole lot of time figuring out what works . getting it to fit
     
    Bowbender likes this.
  11. Jul 27, 2019
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    USA
    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Messages:
    5,798
    I am ready as soon as I make my new front driveshaft, honestly. The only hurdle is getting my rolling junk pile out there to thrash on the rubicon. Dreaming of retrofitting a school bus, dirt bikes in the back flat towing my jeep to Cali.....

    I also need to finish my spare tire holder, get a spare etc..
     
  12. Jul 27, 2019
    Lockman

    Lockman OK.....Now I Get It . 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Silver Hill,...
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2018
    Messages:
    2,698
    The Auto is the way to go, Brother ! Hell of a lot easier at the stoplights. :whistle:
     
    Buildflycrash likes this.
  13. Jul 27, 2019
    Buildflycrash

    Buildflycrash More or Less in Line. 2024 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Gulf Breeze FL...
    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,559
    You got one afternoons work. Besides the transmission I need to completely rebuild both axles, add lockers, rock rails.
     
  14. Jul 27, 2019
    supertrooper

    supertrooper Member

    moreno valley, ca
    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2007
    Messages:
    742
    I swaped in a sm465 and i couldn't be happier. When driving in town i only use 2nd 3rd and 4th but on the rubicon i mostly left it in 1st and low range and never felt like i needed lower gearing. Like others have said the adapter requires full disassembly of the transmission but i always rebuild used drivetrain parts anyway. Its very easy to rebuild if you have access to a shop press to press on the brass bushings onto the new mainshaft. You will need to modify or replace the transmission crossmember, modify transmission cover, the driveshaft lengths will need to be changed, for a buick 225 the bellhousing and trans bearing retainer need to be machined. It is a lot of work and money but i have zero regrets. If you can do all the work yourself plan on spending $1000.
     
    ITLKSEZ, FinoCJ and Buildflycrash like this.
  15. Jul 27, 2019
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2013
    Messages:
    5,593
    Or you can run a 3 speed, burn some clutch and go thrash the Rubicon anyway. My experience suggests that having slider protection, locker (just one in the rear) and power steering are more important (in that order) than a 4 speed. I do want a 4 speed, but not having it didn't keep me from running the Rubicon and I wouldn't let it stop you if you want to go. A non running, never completed jeep project is way more of a barrier to the Rubicon than not having a 4 speed...if you get what I am saying. (y)
     
    duffer, Thean, iharding and 5 others like this.
  16. Jul 27, 2019
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor

    Florida Keys
    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2014
    Messages:
    4,170
    There other newer alternative with a compound 1st gear too, such as the NP435. Those are still a large case size, and there are aftermarket adapters that get you to a D18 I believe. The NP435 is pretty common in Ford and Dodge 1 tons.
    I think these can be adapted to the 18's too.
    -Donny
     
  17. Jul 27, 2019
    Buildflycrash

    Buildflycrash More or Less in Line. 2024 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Gulf Breeze FL...
    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2007
    Messages:
    3,559
    I definitely get it. I like driving mine to much to leave it on jack stands very long. I’m going to collect the parts, do the rebuilding and then swap it over a weekend. For axles I might just buy a spares to work on.
     
    Rich M. likes this.
  18. Jul 29, 2019
    jzeber

    jzeber Well-Known Member 2022 Sponsor

    Morgan Hill, Ca
    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2003
    Messages:
    3,323
    I did the SM 465 swap quite a few years back, one of the best mods I ever made for the type of wheeling I do, mostly rock crawling trails including the Rubicon. Novak was great to deal with and has high quality products. You get the new main shaft with their kit. I decided to replace the clutch and get the flywheel surfaced at the same time and added a disc brake parking brake. Total cost for me was around $1,500. You will need to get the driveshaft lengths changed as well. While I was dong this I ended up getting all 4 u-joints matching 1310's, to eliminate the small V6 u-joint. This mod required an new yoke on the D27. While I agree sliders and a locker are top priorities for the Rubicon, the low 1st and a crawl ratio in the upper 70:1 range, mine is 78.6:1, make it easier and less abusive on your rig. Just my $.02.
     
    Buildflycrash, OldAdobe and ITLKSEZ like this.
  19. Jul 29, 2019
    TIm E

    TIm E Aggressively average

    NW Arkansas
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2017
    Messages:
    683
    Just for grins, here is what the case size difference is between the T14 and the SM465...

     
    Thean, 3b a runnin, ITLKSEZ and 2 others like this.
  20. Jul 29, 2019
    jzeber

    jzeber Well-Known Member 2022 Sponsor

    Morgan Hill, Ca
    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2003
    Messages:
    3,323
    Yep, the SM 465 is a big pig of a transmission. I seriously doubt my little CJ can hurt it.
     
New Posts