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225 V6 Dauntless Video - Excessive Noise?

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by 53A1, Jan 19, 2019.

  1. Jan 19, 2019
    53A1

    53A1 Member

    Kern Co. Ca.
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    Thought I would consult the experts.

    Part of the ongoing effort in getting a new project running. Here is the background...

    Aquired A 67 Cj5- Highly Modified Help Needed

    I got it running a couple weeks ago but it backfired out the carb.

    I thought I would start from scratch with the timing because I had to run advanced 20 deg to get it to not backfire. Today I pulled the distributor and confirmed it is an oddfire engine. Fiiled the points, checked compression on #1 and set it to TDC. I reinstalled it with #1 on cap more toward the front, set dwell to 29, timing to 5 btdc and it still runs better when I advance it to 20 btdc. I took it for a drive and it has good power and no back fire like before. Very happy but still wondering why do I need so much advance? Maybe because of the performance mods; headers, 4bbl carb, performance coil and split fire plugs?

    What is really concerning is the engine seems to be making a noise from the valve train. Can't determine where the noise is coming from but it sounds like the valve train. I have never owned a 225 and was wondering if this is how these engines sound or do I have a stuck lifter? Here's a video.



    Thanks!
     
  2. Jan 20, 2019
    TIm E

    TIm E Aggressively average

    NW Arkansas
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    Yeah, that ticking noise is not normal and does sound like valve train. Could be a sticky lifter; there are also hardened pads on the rocker arms where it contacts the valve stem. I believe they are held on with some kind of epoxy. If one of those came off, that would get noisy.

    The 225 is kind of known to have issues getting enough oil to the top end. Probably good to pull the valve covers and inspect everything.
     
    Tom_Hartz likes this.
  3. Jan 20, 2019
    53A1

    53A1 Member

    Kern Co. Ca.
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    One thing I forgot to mention is when I did the compression check on #1 & #2 (I have yet to do the other cylinders) #1 cylinder had no compression. When I cranked the engine for a little while it then had compression. Seems like the lifter was collapsed then came back up. Correct me if I'm wrong, lifters should hold the oil and not drain out correct? It's noisier around cyl #1. I'll bet something is wrong with that lifter. Also, it didn't make the tapping noise when I first got the jeep running. The noise just popped up all of a sudden. I'm going to try putting some ATF or Marvel oil in the engine and see if that fixes it. Next step I'll pull the valve covers. Can I conclude the timing is good?

    Thanks.
     
  4. Jan 20, 2019
    homersdog

    homersdog Tulsa, Ok 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Tulsa, OK
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    Mine will sometimes sound exactly like that when it is cold. It is a lifter that is slow to pump up. It will quiet down after driving a few minutes as the oil thins and warms up. It happens mostly when the Jeep has been parked for a while. Seafoam will improve it somewhat but ultimately I need to replace the lifters.
     
  5. Jan 20, 2019
    Twin2

    Twin2 not him 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Virginia Beach, VA
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    the dreaded lifter noise . mine does it every once in a while . not very often . and sometimes it will tick/knock for 15 minutes
    then go away . I have always associated it. that the engine has stopped on that lifter . and it gets pumped down while sitting parked for days or weeks
    and I run 30W oil . yep try seafoam
     
  6. Jan 20, 2019
    Tom_Hartz

    Tom_Hartz Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    North Carolina
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    I'm with the others, something in the valve train.
     
  7. Jan 20, 2019
    mike starck

    mike starck Member

    salem,oregon
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    Could be a lifter,broken valve spring,broken rocker arm, bad pushrod,etc. Time to pull the rocker covers and have a look. mike
     
  8. Jan 20, 2019
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor

    Florida Keys
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    The wear pads on the rockers are pinned/pressed on. I have actually driven them out to reuse on another rocker. Some rockers will have a hole on the top side where a pin punch can access them.
    To 53a1, what is your oil pressure when the valve train is making noise? I have seen the bypass plunger get stuck open on the lower pump housing.
    Also, it might be possible the rocker assemblies are assembled wrong. The rocker shaft receives oil through one of the pedestals by flowing oil around the hold-down bolt at an end. Also check that the plugs are cottered in place at each end of the shaft.
    No matter what, the source of the noise is likely related to lack of oil in the valvetrain.
    -Donny
     
  9. Jan 20, 2019
    TIm E

    TIm E Aggressively average

    NW Arkansas
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    How tight do the pad pins fit in there Donny? The reason I mentioned these pads is when the machine shop was cleaning my rocker assemblies, a few of the pads went missing never to be found?? I bought another set of rocker assemblies hoping use the best parts to make one good set. I was going to swap out entire rocker arms, but swapping pads would be easier. I mentioned epoxy because where the pads mount to the rocker arms it is kind of knurled...and there does look to be some kind of adhesive there...but I wouldn't swear by it.

    Not sure if I should replace the pads or swap whole arms, just don't want one coming loose again in a newly rebuilt motor.
     
  10. Jan 20, 2019
    djbutler

    djbutler Sponsor

    Rio Linda CA
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    Hmm, valve train noise. When I first looked at the Yellow Barn Find in the owner's driveway, we got it to fire up briefly and it had a couple of valves clattering. Later after I bought it and was reviving it, I found two pushrods bent. I figured that two of the intake valves had stuck with varnish during the 20 year downtime, and the previous owner had tried to start it, bending those pushrods.
    I took them out and straightened then with a vise and hammer. Buick pushrods are solid, so they held up alright after I straightened them back out. Valve noise was gone. Still driving it like that 7 years later.

    Don
     
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  11. Jan 20, 2019
    53A1

    53A1 Member

    Kern Co. Ca.
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    I REALLY appreciate the feedback. If I don't get back right away it's just because I'm busy with life like everyone else. I just got back from taking my son to a wrestling tournament 3 hours away. We stopped by the Autozone on the way home and I dumped some Marvel (ATF) in it tonight. No change. I'm going to let it sit in the engine overnight, try again and next is to try the SeaFoam (Kerosene). I just guessing what these products actually are but I buy them anyways because you never know.

    The funny thing to this story is it just started happening after I pulled the dizzy and checked it all out and reinstalled. I swear the timing is spot on now but that knock is loud. Fixed one problem and created a worse one.

    I'm gradually going to progress and after the SeaFoam I'm pulling the manifold.

    THANKS!
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
  12. Jan 20, 2019
    53A1

    53A1 Member

    Kern Co. Ca.
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    As of tonight and consistant with what I've seen since first start is the oil pressure is 20 (mechanical oil gauge) at idle and goes up to 50 with at 3K rpm. This problem popped up days after the initial start so it was something I introduced. The only thing I can think is I was cranking it to get the distributor to seat into the oil pump gear. Maybe it was oil starved for maybe 1/2 min of cranking?
     
  13. Jan 20, 2019
    53A1

    53A1 Member

    Kern Co. Ca.
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    Forgot to ask, how bad is it to drive on it like this? I just need to take it up to the spray wash (1 mile) before I pull the manifold. It's pretty dirty and don't want any chunks falling into the engine.
     
  14. Jan 21, 2019
    sterlclan

    sterlclan Member 2022 Sponsor

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    So it started after pulling the distributor? Make sure you have it timed right or it will skip cylinders the rotor needs to line up with the right side of the right post on the cap. Had the boys off one tooth and it ran like crap.
     
  15. Jan 21, 2019
    53A1

    53A1 Member

    Kern Co. Ca.
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    It seems to rev smooth and has power. If the timing was off it would run rough. Could timing cause it to knock yet idle smooth? It's my experience they barely run or don't run at all if timing is off.
     
  16. Jan 21, 2019
    sterlclan

    sterlclan Member 2022 Sponsor

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    the boys ran, had decent power just started mean,sheared the pin on the drive gear. fixed the gear and timed it like the directions here said to and it starts better has more power and gets better mileage. Im just guessing that the pulled distributor and the recent noise may be related somehow.
     
  17. Jan 22, 2019
    53A1

    53A1 Member

    Kern Co. Ca.
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    Here's the current timing. Note there is a notch on the housing at the red line. The color indicates where the tip of the rotor is at what degree based on where the line on the pulley lines up on the scale. Rotor and pulley turn clockwise. Green line is TDC on the scale. Red line is about 20 deg BTDC and this is where I set it to run correctly. The black line is where the #1 is on the distributor cap. The notch and the #1 on the cap don't exactly match up but they are close. Is it coincidental that it runs best when the rotor tip is lined up with the notch?

    My distributor cap is the one with the window between posts #1 and #2. The jeep is a '67.

    Found this posting. I may have the wrong cap.

    Distributor differences for the 225

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2019
  18. Jan 25, 2019
    53A1

    53A1 Member

    Kern Co. Ca.
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    Confirmed I have the correct cap and I'm on the correct distributor cam lobe at TDC. Timing is good. I'm onto popping off the valve cover.
     
  19. Feb 25, 2019
    53A1

    53A1 Member

    Kern Co. Ca.
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    Problem has been resolved and the engine is now running very nice. Runs quiet with a little rumble like people describe.

    '67 Oddfire 225 Bent Push Rods

    Just to recap so others may benefit, I believe the push rods bent because of varnish causing the valves to stick. I was fortunate that the engine is otherwise in decent condition and just suffered from neglect. I worked the valves loose with carb cleaner and ATF and luckily didn't bend any valves. I cleaned the rocker assemblies and I rebuilt all of the lifters and straightened the push rods. I added engine cleaner and used priming tool to cycle oil through system checking rocker and lifter oil galleys. I cleaned the gas tank and lines and used Lucas 1oz per gallon to lubricate the valves.

    In the future, if I come across an engine that has been sitting I will probably at least remove the valve covers and maybe go as far as checking if the lifters are stuck before startup.
     
    Tom_Hartz and 47v6 like this.
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