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Making My CJ5 Into A CJ6/II

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by tarry99, Jan 20, 2014.

  1. Feb 10, 2014
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
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    Looks nice Tarry.

     
  2. Feb 10, 2014
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    Oct 29, 2012
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    3,784
    Hi John,

    Nope your not missing anything, just didn't like the loss of the upward bump stop travel which was even a greater loss on the short side........and then once a flat platform was fabricated to hit the bump it would have even more limited compression travel ........which in these early CJ's may or may not be a bad thing without trimming fenders and inside panels. In fact limited upward travel in some case's may be just fine , since most of the travel on a long leave spring is just droop anyway. The problem I was having is once welded it would make it a little harder to change course and since the other method would probably be just as effective I went with the shorter brace.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2014
  3. Feb 10, 2014
    piffey263

    piffey263 Active Member

    Medford, OR
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    Oct 16, 2008
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    1,214
    looks good tarry,

    did you use the blankets, and heater to get the axle up to the initial temp to tig weld the bracing on the housing?



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  4. Feb 10, 2014
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    Nope just on the cool down side , the heater is there just to bring it down slowly.........getting it up to temp required two large Rose buds on the OXY/Acetylene torches for about 10 minutes using welding heat sticks to gauge the temperature.
     
  5. Feb 10, 2014
    rejeep

    rejeep Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Rochester, NY
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    dem welds are purdy
     
  6. Feb 10, 2014
    Danefraz

    Danefraz Well-Known Member 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Chico CA
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    Wow. Do you rent out your skills?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  7. Feb 13, 2014
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    Back to the Build.............. the Dana-30 is now in.

    Now I need to figure out how to squeeze the much larger Saginaw 800 HD Power steering gear into the same space that the old Manual box occupied between the frame rail and the Warn Winch..........(It should be noted that back in the seventy's when buying a new Warn Winch with one of there standard installation bumpers as you have seen on my Jeep that was to be installed in a early CJ that had been retro fitted with a Saginaw steering gear there recommended fix was to offset the bumper and winch to the passengers side by one inch , by either re-drilling or elongating the mounting holes in the bumper that attached to the frame.......Really! .....and if you didn't like the fact that the bumper was hanging out a little further on the passenger side there fix was to cut off the excess so that both sides matched......they actually sent a typed letter to that effect with the new winch packet when new owners were confronted with that problem of room).

    Notwithstanding changing over those old large PTO style U-joints..........back then you built everything and you used what was available, pretty clumsy stuff but it worked.

    I may be at a slight advantage here.........only from the standpoint that I have done steering systems in Race Cars before.......not to say this will mirror anything in a Race Car but the principals that makeup a good steering systems are not by chance or mistake...........they are engineered correctly while paying attention to proper angles and geometry. Of course the factory guys have a clean piece of paper from which to work from and build around ..........in this retro environment that's not the case as everything becomes a slight compromise or trade off to get everything where it needs to go.

    Time to cut some metal!


    [​IMG]
    OUT WITH THE OLD AND IN WITH THE NEW, HOW ABOUT THAT OLD RETRO STEERING BRACE I CRUDELY INSTALLED YEARS AGO? MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE FIRST EVER?
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    The old bushing that I made for this end of the column was a piece of oil-lite bronze. The only thing holding it into the end of the column shaft was the grease fitting.
    [​IMG]

    TIME TO CUT SOME METAL
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2014
  8. Feb 17, 2014
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    Back to the build...........Setting up Steering is allot of fun , I like it cause it keeps your mind working all the time as you visualize where these things all need to go , then start making small surgical cuts in order to get the parts fitted while keeping within the confines of the area and the correct geometry. This install was also going to encompass another feature that had never been done before on a early CJ-5 ( at least that I have seen ) which was going to be the addition of a sway bar with disconnects for the front axle. Remember I used the Holbrook Long Leaf spring package front and rear.........Smooth & Great off road for articulation but a little soft for the corners on pavement and highway driving as they just seem to lean allot! Notwithstanding I was told by Holbrook that there was just not enough room under there to do so...................humm , now that's a challenge!

    This is where it gets a little tricky.........What has to happen in order for the New Larger Saginaw 800 Power steering gear box to fit is this: I must move the steering gear box mount over into the frame rail to create enough space so that the larger Power gear box will eventually fit back between the frame rail and my Warn Winch. In order to do so I must cut away the old Saginaw Manual mounts and also the boxing material on that frame rail that I installed over 40 years ago. I'll need to rebuild that frame rail so I'm going to use a piece of 3/8" inch plate as the main mounting surface.........At the same time the box needs to be angled up about 10-12 degree's so that the input shaft is now aimed or pointed where the steering column universal will exit the firewall. The installed height of the box is also important to keep it up high enough to stay away from any rock impacts. Also very important is to keep the box in a position forward and aft that allows the fluid lines to exit inside the engine compartment behind the grill , while also keeping the Pittman Arm & Drag Link attachment point far enough back from the new larger crossover tie rod. This is necessary when the springs go into full compression the front axle will move forward by as much as 3/4" inch as it follows the shackles forward. Off course the steering box is stationary so there is the possibility of a collision between the two when steering straight ahead and going into full spring compression.....if you notice I have a plum bob on a string hanging down to check that position along with several hundred pounds of sand bags over the front axle............
    Lots of mocking up and clamping things while checking angles and alignment of all things which are necessary prior to any fabrication or welding.

    In the last picture I cut a 4" hole in the cross member that holds the radiator......this was done to be able to get an angle for the steering gear box to the column using as few universals while doing so.[​IMG]
    PLENTY OF CLAMPS HOLDING A MOCK UP EMPTY STEERING GEAR IN POSITION...........THIS WAS DONE OVER & OVER AS YOU CONTINUALLY CHECK MEASUREMENTS.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    COMING FORWARD THROUGH THE CROSS MEMBER
    [​IMG]
    PLUMB BOB TO CHECK CLEARANCE
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  9. Feb 17, 2014
    Danefraz

    Danefraz Well-Known Member 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Chico CA
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    Aug 11, 2012
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    Wow. Excellent. I'll follow that when I start my power steering conversion.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  10. Feb 17, 2014
    scott milliner

    scott milliner Master Fabricator

    Seattle Wa.
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    Dec 17, 2002
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    2,361
    Keep in mine that the box needs to be mounted low enough so that it will still work at full suspension down travel, or you may need a lower drop pitman arm.
     
  11. Feb 17, 2014
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    Scott...........I've never really had to much concern at full droop with steering since that event is normally while crawling and for just a limited period of time..........I like the box mounted high so that it does not become a target for a log or rock. I have high steer spindles on it now with the TRE's on top of the arms. A tie rod flip on a standard knuckle would also work.............The drag link TRE that's mounted at the Pittman Arm is mounted in the opposite direction that the TRE's are at the spindle which gives it the largest range of motion down as possible.........quite honestly under full compression mine would have a greater chance of binding..........but that would be limited by the bump stops anyway.......................
    The good news about the bolt on High Steer arms is that if at some point , I don't like the range of motion I can just build another set that are more or less offset.

    Thanks for the heads up!
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2014
  12. Feb 23, 2014
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    Back to the build,.........As I mentioned before I need to move the new Saginaw box over a little into the Left side frame rail to make more room for the Warn Winch. The first picture below is the cutting of the frame rail making room for that work. A piece of 4 Inch 1/4" wall tubing will act as the strength for the cavity that I must cut through the existing cross member to allow the steering input shaft to proceed forward at the correct angle to the firewall and meet universal joint that comes from the new steering column.


    THIS WAS MY INITIAL CUT INTO THE DRIVERS SIDE FRAME RAIL
    [​IMG]
    THIS IS THE CUTOUT OF THE DRIVERS SIDE FRAME RAIL.......I CUT THE EXISTING BOXED PORTION AT AN ANGLE ABOVE THE SPRING HANGER TO ALLOW A LONGER AREA FOR ATTACHMENT & WELDING, ALSO THAT PLATE WILL TIE INTO THE BASE OF THE SPRING HANGER.
    [​IMG]
    THIS PHOTO SHOWS THE NEW PLATE BEING FITTED INTO THE FRAME RAIL. IF YOU NOTICE ONE END IS ANGLED INTO THE FRAME RAIL TO AGAIN GET THE PROPER CLEARANCE FOR THE WINCH AND ALSO CORRECT THE ANGLE GOING FORWARD TO THE COLUMN
    [​IMG]
    BECAUSE THE BOX IS BEING ELEVATED THESE HOLES WERE NEEDED AT OR ABOVE THE FRAME RAIL FOR TWO OF THE 4 BOLTS THAT ATTACHE THE SAGINAW 800 GEAR BOX. THE POSITION OF THESE HOLES WILL ALSO HELP HIDE THIS AREA WITH MY OLD DIAMOND PLATE TRIM.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    3/8" PLATE HAS NOW BEEN CUT OUT TO FIT THE AREA PREVIOUSLY REMOVED, AND NOW BEING FITTED TO THE FRAME RAIL. IF YOU NOTICE THE SQUARE HOLE MILLED OUT THAT IS THERE TO CLEAR A CASTING BOSS ON THE GEAR BOX. THAT ONE HOLE WILL BE FLUSH TO THE PLATE WHILE ALL THE OTHERS REQUIRE SIZED SPACERS THAT THE BOLTS GO THROUGH. THE LARGE BLOCK THAT IS THREADED WITH TWO HOLES HOLDS MY DIAMOND PLATE BUMPER TRIM ON WHILE ALSO HOLDING A LARGE TOW HOOK ON EACH SIDE.
    [​IMG]
    VERTICAL GUSSETS WERE INSTALLED & WELDED INSIDE THE FRAME RAIL BEHIND THE 3/8" PLATE SO THAT ANY EXCESS TIGHTENING OF THE 4 BOLTS WOULD NOT TRY TO COLLAPSE THE RAIL.
    [​IMG]
    FROM THE OPPOSITE SIDE, THE HOLES THAT WERE PREVIOUSLY CUT IN THE TOP OF THE RAIL HAVE NOW HAD SPUDS BUILT AND INSTALLED THAT WILL GUIDE AND HOUSE THE BOLTS GOING THROUGH THE TOP OF THE FRAME RAIL. THE SPUD IN THE REAR IS MADE TO ACCEPT A SOCKET HEAD ALLEN BOLT WHILE THE ONE IN THE FRONT TAKES A STANDARD HEX HEAD. GUSSETS WILL BE ADDED TO THE PORTION OF THE PLATE BELOW THE FRAME RAIL LATER.
    [​IMG]
    4" X 1/4" WALL TUBE HAS NOW BEEN FITTED AND TACKED IN............YOU'LL NOTICE THAT I ALSO USED THE BASE OF THAT TUBE BY MILLING IT OFF SQUARE TO ATTACHE THE SWAY BAR MOUNTING PLATE TO , AGAIN NOT ALLOT OF ROOM UP HERE NOW AS YOU CAN SEE. IF YOU REMEMBER THE GUYS FROM HOLBROOK SPRINGS SAID THAT SQUEEZING A SWAY BAR IN THERE WOULD BE NEXT TO IMPOSSIBLE.............AND THEY WERE RIGHT, BUT NOT IMPOSSIBLE! .......THE TRICK IS MOVING THE BAR FAR ENOUGH FORWARD TO GET IT IN THE PROPER POSITION TO ALLOW THE LINK TO BE ATTACHED TO THE FRONT OF THE AXLE AS THE REAR SIDE OF THE AXLE WILL BE TAKEN UP BY THE SHOCK MOUNT AS THE SHOCKS GET MOVED BEHIND THE AXLE NOW. NOTWITHSTANDING KEEPING THE GEAR AND PITTMAN ARM IN THE CORRECT ORIENTATION TO THE TIE ROD , DRAG LINK & SPINDLE..........THIS IS A MUCH EASIER TASK ON THE LATER CJ-5's AFTER 1972 WHEN THE FACTORY STRETCHED THEM ANOTHER 3 INCHES, THEREBY MOVING THE STEERING BOX FORWARD AND ALLOWING ALLOT MORE SPACE............... NOT SO HERE ON THE EARLY CJ's , GRASPING FOR ANY SPACE , ANYWHERE TO MAKE ROOM.
    [​IMG]
     
    Danefraz likes this.
  13. Feb 23, 2014
    Posimoto

    Posimoto Hopeless JEEP Addict

    Minden, Nevada
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    Looking good Terry. I thought I had subscribed to this thread a long time ago. Damn senior moments!
     
  14. Feb 23, 2014
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
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    Nice work Tarry. I like the boxes mounted high also-for the same reason. A number of ways to get the drag link geometery right.
     
  15. Feb 23, 2014
    rejeep

    rejeep Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Rochester, NY
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    very nice fab skills...
     
  16. Feb 23, 2014
    4wealn

    4wealn Member

    Ontario, Canada
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    That looks great, I am going to have to do something like that too, only mine will not look nearly as nice
     
  17. Feb 23, 2014
    CJ5Kyle

    CJ5Kyle Member

    Livermore, CA
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    Getting a good amount of work done Terry! Keep it up!
     
  18. Mar 1, 2014
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    Back to the build.......in these photos just a few more views of the mounting and tack welding of the gear mount and sway bar mounts. Everything seems to be in proper alignment for the Drag Link, Tie Rod , Steering shaft forward to firewall and the position of the sway bar disconnects.............I think a sway bar is important when you have the desire to have a flexy soft suspension for off road but still want to drive it on the pavement..............guys I know constantly complain about the tilt or lean on the highway with there flexy suspensions to the point that I have seen guys take the good springs off and trade them for a much stiffer set only to find the only thing they fixed was the lean and in the process killed there ride and there great off road manners and articulation........the sway bar and disconnects are there to get the best of both Worlds.........I think a Front sway bar alone should do the trick.......but if a rear is also needed I'll add one later. Note: The front sway bar is off a 1980 CJ-5 narrow track axle to match the D-30 front.......the factory sway bar mounts that come with it will not work on the early CJ's frame because of the cross member which is in the way that mounts the Radiator. Much easier to custom build the mounts.


    [​IMG]
    PATH WAY LOOKING FORWARD ....THAT LARGE HOLE WILL BE HIDDEN ONCE I ADD THE SUPPORT BEARING AND THE GUSSETS ON THE OTHER SIDE.
    [​IMG]
    DUMMY SET-UP GEAR MOUNTED IN PLACE
    [​IMG]
    VIEW OF SWAY BAR TO PASSENGERS SIDE.......ALL GUSSETS HAVE NOT YET BEEN ADDED
    [​IMG]
    VIEW OF SWAY BAR ON DRIVERS SIDE. LOOKING FOR ABOUT A 10-15 DEGREE SLOPE UP ON BAR TO ESTABLISH DISCONNECT LENGTH TO AXLE.
    [​IMG]
    THIS VIEW SHOWS HOW HIGH THE BOX IS MOUNTED.....OUT OF THE WAY OF ANY TREES OR ROCKS.
    [​IMG]
    LOWER GEAR MOUNT BEFORE 3 GUSSETS ARE ADDED
    [​IMG]
    HOW ABOUT THAT? NOW I HAVE ROOM BETWEEN THE WINCH AND THE LARGER SAGINAW POWER STEERING GEAR BOX.
    [​IMG]
     
  19. Mar 3, 2014
    USMC 0369

    USMC 0369 In the slow lane.

    Fallbrook, CA
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    Hey Terry, clean out your Inbox friend. I have pictures to send you!
    Nick
     
  20. Mar 3, 2014
    68BuickV6

    68BuickV6 Well-Known Member

    Hesperia, CA.
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    Is your Jeep lifted at all Terry?
    I assume a different swaybar is needed for big(ger) lifts, like a 2.5 inch?
     
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