1. Registration trouble? Please use the "Contact Us" link at the bottom right corner of the page and your issue will be resolved.
    Dismiss Notice

Psa - Dana 18 Thrust Washer Issue

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by TIm E, Aug 14, 2019.

  1. Aug 27, 2019
    Alan28

    Alan28 Well-Known Member 2022 Sponsor

    Châtillon en...
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages:
    2,327
    When I read this problem, I am quite surprised but, that's life. I long ago supplied with a factory partner parts for car industry, it is big quantities at hardly discussed price. Sometimes they acceted a better price for a lower quality.... they knew it.
    And each month I receive my magazine about quality life... and there is one page for cars called back by factories for various problems : Audi, BMW, Mercedes, and others have sometimes problems, these are new cars! And it can be dangerous.
    I believe that I dream, but it is true! This is not very serious in my opinion.
     
  2. Aug 27, 2019
    Vanguard

    Vanguard Take Off! Staff Member

    Vista, CA USA
    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2006
    Messages:
    2,256
    I'm implying that they should have a quality program to ensure the consistent delivery of good products. If they don't then, it's just a crap shoot and you're hoping you get a good kit. If you trusted Novak and you get bad parts, then you're either stuck with the rebuild or paying a rebuilder to do the job again. That's not satisfactory.
     
    Thean and 47v6 like this.
  3. Aug 27, 2019
    Thean

    Thean Member

    HSB Idaho
    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2017
    Messages:
    88
    Believe me, I get it. Apparently, like a majority of American auto companies, the end user is QCing the third party parts. Because Novak knows they are bad now. It’s possible it would save them money to go/no-go check each set, rather than ship out more and cost sales/tech time. However, Imagine a $12/hr employee (who would probably make more at Starbucks) QCing your parts as they bagged them
     
  4. Aug 27, 2019
    Thean

    Thean Member

    HSB Idaho
    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2017
    Messages:
    88
    yes, I agree.... at what expense though. There are thousands of these bearing, hardware, etc type component parts (with specified tolerance) rolling through a shop like this daily. It’s standard SOP to add their in house mfg’d components to form a kit and ship out while remaining competitively priced. I don’t know what the reject rate is, but I’d guess it’s less than a few percent and doesn’t justify QCing entire runs. Getting a bad run of parts from a supplier isn’t unheard of and catches many companies off guard.
     
  5. Aug 27, 2019
    Thean

    Thean Member

    HSB Idaho
    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2017
    Messages:
    88
    Gentleman, we should start a new thread in off topic where we argue for 400 pages about SOP, QC, tolerances, etc and then we start our own company and do it better:blah: :D:clap::beer:
     
  6. Aug 27, 2019
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Administrator Staff Member

    Tantallon, Nova...
    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2003
    Messages:
    8,102
    Ahh, you agree :)

    Ahh, you don't agree :(


    No I wouldn't check bearings either except maybe to verify the recieved part id.s The thrust washers are a different catagory, AFAIK only used on T90's so proabaly they arn't stocking a whole lot at any one time.

    Agreed, however after they knew the parts were bad & sent them out to be re-machined I think i would have been a bit curious & re-checked at least a healthy sample.


    Hey, I like Novak but this is not acceptable service.
     
    Vanguard and Thean like this.
  7. Aug 27, 2019
    Thean

    Thean Member

    HSB Idaho
    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2017
    Messages:
    88
    Maybe “agree” wasn’t the right term. As a fellow automotive numbskull, I understand your expectations while simultaneously understanding their plight. :sneak: (Am I ready for politics?)
    I DO agree about rechecking them once they had negative feedback. Definitely a hole in their QA in that respect. Probably a sales guy who grabbed another set, tossed them in the box and out the door, while fielding other calls. I’ve done that before, so I know the embarrassment when the customer calls back understandably upset. Then your oh :poo: meter pegs and you make it right by whatever means necessary.
     
  8. Aug 27, 2019
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Administrator Staff Member

    Tantallon, Nova...
    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2003
    Messages:
    8,102
    Don't know..

    Can you drink their booze, smoke their cigars, sleep with their women & still tell them "No" to their face?

    If so...







    Maybe. :rolleyes:
     
    Dandy, Vanguard and Thean like this.
  9. Aug 27, 2019
    aekdbbop

    aekdbbop Member

    TN
    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2014
    Messages:
    403
    Hmm.. installed their intermediate shaft, bearings and washers about a year and a half ago. Late this spring my intermediate shaft bearings fell apart and caused havoc on my transfer case. Ended up talking to novak, shipped my transfer case to them ($$). They told me that something was out of spec. Sent me a rebuilt d18 for $500 + freight ($$$$). Wonder if this is related...

    Oh and my OD was full of metal chunks.. had to get that rebuilt for another $300...:/
     
  10. Aug 27, 2019
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2002
    Messages:
    12,529
    This problem has been going on for quite awhile and I’m pretty sure the D18 thrust washers are originally sourced Crown parts. The last 6 sets I’ve received from at least 3 sources including Novak and two different transmission parts suppliers have had the same issue. Had to rework the backside of each one. Novak is aware of it and working on it but not quite there “yet”.
     
    Thean likes this.
  11. Aug 27, 2019
    Thean

    Thean Member

    HSB Idaho
    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2017
    Messages:
    88
    Pull cluster gear and send it to Herm for the AA taper upgrade.
     
  12. Apr 16, 2021
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Messages:
    5,626
    The Novak rebuild kit I received in February 2021 still has the same issue with 096" thick thrust washers. That's over a year later. It doesn't seem like they're working too hard on a solution.

    The old thrust washers were worn to 0.089 so the total thickness with one old and one new was right in the middle of spec.
     
    fhoehle likes this.
  13. Apr 16, 2021
    Mr Vaughan

    Mr Vaughan

    every single lego brick is measured before shipping out. Every. Single. One.
     
  14. May 19, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2013
    Messages:
    5,593
    Update for my D18 Novak kit that I ordered back in November and am using on the 58 D18. Here is what I am finding:
    I was sent two sets of thrust washers - actually i was sent the normal D18 rebuild kit from whomever Novak gets their initial stuff from with generic intermediate shaft/roller bearings, and then they added in their additional Novak kit that includes the hardened intermediate shaft and roller bearings (in special green bag).

    [​IMG]

    Measurements:
    used thrust washers that I am removing: 0.093" (and I didn't clean all the carbonized surface coating off)
    generic thrust washers: 0.097"
    Novak thrust washers included with the hardened shaft kit: 0.092"

    So I was thinking its all good - the problem seems fixed....but....

    since I had the caliper out and am being all attention to detail and whatnot measured some other stuff. Specifically, I measured the thickness of the 3 ring spacers that fit with the roller bearings. Guess my thought is that the thickness of the spacer ring would affect how thick the thrust washer should be? Or am I missing something with how the thrust washers work? Are there specs for the ring spacers? Anyway...
    used ring spacers that I am removing: 0.126"
    generic ring spacers: 0.118"

    In other words, although the generic thrust washers are too thick, the associated ring spacers are too thin - almost wonder if that was planned?....Anyway, if we add up the total thickness of the 2 thrust washers and 3 ring spacers, the generic kit is too thin (again, assuming I am not missing something fundamental with the relationship between the thrust washers and ring spacers):
    used and removing: 0.564"
    generic kit: 0.548"
    no ring spacers were included in the hardened shaft kit - so assuming I use the generic spacers, then it seems I should use the abnormally thick generic thrust washers as well, because the 'proper' 0.092 washers will make the situation even worse?

    What do you all think? FWIW - I also measured the lengths for the different roller bearings, and they basically are all the same at 1.178".
     
  15. May 19, 2021
    Mr Vaughan

    Mr Vaughan

    i don't see how you could accurately check the size of your old ones, one of mine was down to the steel.
    [​IMG]20210514_161045 by Levi Vaughan, on Flickr
     
  16. May 20, 2021
    TIm E

    TIm E Aggressively average

    NW Arkansas
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2017
    Messages:
    683
    There should be no relationship between the thickness of the spacers and the thrust washers. The spacers only set the space or roller "end-play" inside of the cluster gear, the thrust washers set the end-play of the cluster gear inside the case. I'm glad to see they seem to have addressed the thrust washer issue, and yes, I have also noticed the spacer difference. I have done a variety of things there: I have reused the original spacers if not rusty as they are not a high wear item. I have also used the new/replacement spacers and actually had room to get one more in there with what I felt was and acceptable amount of space or end-play. I believe there should be some clearance in needle bearings for heat expansion, oil retention, etc., but how much? No idea. I looked at it through the lens of all my previous experience and made a judgement call on the spacers. Using just the replacement spacers seemed like too much play, so I tend to take each one on a case by case basis and try combinations of spacers that get it to where it seems the "right" amount of end-play or space. Again, actual measurement? No idea. Somewhere between not having so much that the needle bearings float around in there, but also not so tight that it might bind up when hot. There may be a more scientific answer, but that's my 2 cents anyway.

    Mr. Vaughan, those thrust washers look fairly well abused. Be careful, this could also be your fate if caught getting Jeep part goo on momma's serger table!
     
    FinoCJ likes this.
  17. May 20, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2013
    Messages:
    5,593
    I have the used and removed intermediate shaft and thrust washers from both the large and small hole D18s I have rebuilt, and both look better than what you show. I rebuild some of this stuff just because its out of the vehicle and on the bench for other reasons (engine swap, tera low conversion), and since I don't know the history of them, it just seems worth getting them all redone. Then I know who, what, where and when each piece has been worked on and condition etc....If I were super budget conscious I could probably re-use more of the parts, but the small additional cost and effort to fully redo these pieces at this point seems worth it. I don't really want to do this stuff again (on this vehicle). Plus now I have lots of decently used spare sparts sitting around if I ever needed them...in other words junk filling up all my storage shelving.
     
  18. May 20, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2013
    Messages:
    5,593
    Yes - thanks for the clarification - makes total sense now!
    One day, the cj5 D18 will probably get pulled apart again, and it'll be interesting to see how the thrust washers/cluster gear/inside of the case wear look. When I rebuilt that one, I have no idea if there was an issue with the thickness of the thrust washers, but it was a novak kit from about 5 years ago - hopefully before the issue came up.
     
  19. May 20, 2021
    Mr Vaughan

    Mr Vaughan

    i made sure to clean them up before i brough them in the house, otherwise i might have recieved the death penalty.
    a lot of things in there were seriously abused. i believe the shaft is so bad from a lack of oil causing the needles to freeze, locking the gear and shaft together, wearing on the ends of the shaft from turning in the case. before that, the needles had done a number on the shaft already. make sure you always keep fluids topped off, this is why.
     
  20. May 20, 2021
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2018
    Messages:
    5,626
    NOTE: James bought his parts in November and they were OK. I bought my Kit 18MR-3, master rebuild (that includes the new shaft) in February after James bought his and I received the too-thick thrust washers. Your results may vary.
     
    FinoCJ likes this.
New Posts