f-head oil port

[davet]

I'm working on putting a turbo onto my f-head. I need to use crankcase oil to lubricate the turbo. Right now I have a mechanical oil pressure gauge getting its oil from a port on the rear of the driver's side of the engine. Can I "T" off of this to run another oil line to the turbo? Will this oil line be enough to lube the turbo and run to the gauge? Seems too small for that. Where can I access another spot to get oil for turbo? Is there another place on the block that I can dump the oil after its been through the turbo without drilling a hole and putting a fitting in the pan? Thanks.

[jpflat2a]

Haven't run an F-head in years, but I wouldn't worry about the oil to the guage; if there was a concern it would be enough oil to the cylinder head.
I don't see why you could not install a tee block, then have your gauge, oil supply line to the head, and your turbo oil line all come of the same block.
All things being equal, 30 psi is 30 psi.
Another spot would be the oil filter line/hose connections. You could possibly tee into it there and use it as a supply; just make sure you are on the pressure side.
As far as the return line goes, you could use the oil filter line connection again, or go back into the dipstick tube with a fitting added there somewhere, rather than in the oil pan. Just seems to me it would be easier to get out and modify. It is going to the same place.
But I don't know how this location would work for you.
my 2 cents worth

[vanguard]

The appropriate amount of oil to the turbo is critical. The oil serves a dual purpose in the turbocharger, it both lubes the bearings and removes heat from the center section. I would not try to tee off the itty bitty line that feeds a mechanical oil gauge, pressure might be enough but the volume would be insufficent. You probably will need to tap an oil galley in the block. And be sure to pull the oil from the filtered side of system.

Remember that a turbocharger is exhaust driven and that the turbine side can get very hot. Additionally, the turbo is going to be spinning somewhere between 10-30,000 rpm with transient increases that can spike far beyond that. Insufficient oil feeding the CHRA (Center Housing Rotating Assembly) can cause rapid turbo failures. Let tell you about containment. :evil:

At Garrett, we specially modified turbine wheels to fail at a high speed and then tested the turbine housings to make sure they could contain the resulting shrapnel. :shock: Now if you consider that the compressor wheel (usually aluminum) is mechanically connected to turbine wheel a failure usually means that the Compressor wheel is going to break up as well - into leettle teeny aluminum pieces with a direct path into your engines intake. :shock:

What type of turbo are you planning on using? Will it have an wastegate (to prevent overboost)?

As far as the oil goes, someone posted about an old ad for a turbo kit. It might have pictures or even list the turbo that was used. Sizing the turbo is important as the wrong unit will hurt your performance more than it will help.

Properly matched a turbo can increase both power and fuel efficiency by about 30%. It will also help to reduce emissions. Hopefully your engine has been recently rebuilt or has good compression as the turbo will increase combustion pressures significantly.

[jpflat2a]

Thanks Joel for bailing me out.
I knew someone more qualified would have a much better reponse !

JOEL IS THE MAN ;)

[vanguard]

Happy to help out! :beer:

Although, turbocharging an F-head would be cool, a normally aspirated V6 is probably a better choice (its what I'm doing). The turbo is going to have to spool up to really provide power and this usually occurs at around 3000 rpm or so. Higher than you might want to be running on the trail. Adding a turbo will mean the following too:

Custom exhaust manifold, modified intake and modified carb. You're either going to have to put the carb out front or box it to allow it to be pressurized by the turbo.

Aside from a V6, you might also consider a Paxton type supercharger - belt driven with its own internal lubrication. No turbo lag with this either.

Having said all this, I have to admit it that when my '63 Corvair Monza Spyder hit 3000 rpm it was really cool to hear the turbo spool up and then feel the boost come on. :twisted:

Of course, I never really felt safe in the Corvair at 80 mph :shock: .

[blevisay]

Your scarin me.......The F heads stroke is a mile long :shock:
With that said I will require pics and a full write up. :D

On the drivers side of the block there is an oil port.....most people use it for the gauge and it is close enough to the pump to oil the turbo IMO.

I guess that would be a catagory 5 Hurricane :hurrican: :hurrican: :hurrican: :hurrican: :hurrican:

[jpflat2a]

When I had my F-head, it routinely saw 4000+rpm in the sand dunes; ok, it was balanced.
Pretty tough engine and will take a lot of abuse.
And yes, those rods are a mile long !

[Glenn]

I'm wondering if taking oil from that port may starve the rocker arm assembly. Isn't that from that path?

[davet]

Right now it looks like a Garret T-03 or Garret VNT-15 which were used on Mopar 2.2 and 2.5 liter engines in the mid to late 80's. Since these engines ran close to 7,000 RPM I might not be working the turbo too hard. Another consideration is a turbo off of a 1.8 liter motor. This might help the initial spool up. Any thoughts? It seems that I may be able to flip the exhaust manifold upside down but if I can't I'll mock it up (hopefully not muck it up) with flex pipe to try it out. I think if I run 5lbs of boost I wont have to do major mods to seal the carb except maybe the bottom of the accelerator pump arm where it extends out the bottom of the carb. If I need extra fuel for the carb I'll mount a Dial-A-Jet from Thunder Products onto the carb($80.00 and mounts on the ouside of the carb throat). I've used them on snowmobiles for about 7 years and they work great. This way I will be able to literally "dial in" the jetting externally on the carb if it's too lean in stock form. Anybody know how I can measure the amount of boost I'm generating? In the 21st Century Turbo Book by Dick Datson he shows a simple wastegate made from a radiator filler neck assembly spliced between the turbo and the carb. The amount of the blow off pressure is determined by the pressure of the radiator cap installed on it. The problem I see with this setup is that a 7lb pressure cap will release at 7lbs but I don't think it will release enough volume of air to keep the boost at 7lbs.
I just put new rod bearings and rings in the engine and have even compression across the 4 cylinders. The head was milled at that time .060" so I don't know now what my overall compression ratio is. Stock its 7.5:1 but does anyone know what it might be now. The bore is stock. My research tells me that 8.0:1 or lower is the best for a turbo engine. My research also tells me that the L-head and F-head are designed with features that make it an excellent choice for turbo charging (large valves, forged crank, forged rods, large overall main bearing area compared to overall length of the crank, long stroke).
Anybody know of a self-contained turbo that runs it's own oil I could use instead of tapping the engine? Yes a V-6 would be nice to have but it's so rare in my circles of trialriders to see an F-head that I want to keep it. Thanks for all the responses. Keep the advice coming. This is an area I'm new to (turbos) and need to tap your brains.

[davet]

Just so you know this project is still in the "feasability study" stage. I need as much info as I can get regarding my questions before I lay out $100.00 for a used turbo.
I might just end up mounting a small air compressor and air tank on the Jeep and fit an air nozzle into the intake hose. When I need a little extra power I'll hit a button on the shifter and give her a shot of pressureized air metered at 5lbs I'll call it my NAS button ( Not A Supercharger) :rotflmao: .

[vanguard]

I think that you might be better off with the T-3. IIRC, the VNT-15 had a complex variable geometery thing inside the compressor housing. If you're buying used, do some research on what to look for. At a minimum, the turbo needs to spin freely, there should be very little resistance and look out for coking in the turbine housing. Coking is a black buildup .

It would also be good to hear it on a running engine. Avoid turbos that generate a high pitch whine - they won't be running well for long.

Also look out for damaged compressor or turbine wheels. If parts of the the fins are damaged, avoid it as the balance will be off.

Oh yeah, you will most likely want a turbo with wastegate, too.

[davet]

Thanks. I see a T-2 on some small 1.8 and 1.6 liters. How are these for durability/simplicity. I'm looking at maybe just running 5lbs of boost. I don't think radiator caps come in this 5 lb vent but I'm still checking. A couple of different turbo shops have told me now that the radiator cap blowoff valve is very effective and has been used successfully for many years. The cap will be able to blowoff enough air to keep the boost at 7lbs but if I'm worried about it I can run 2 caps. Also so I can tune the boost more efficiently I'm looking at putting a pulley on a turbo and tuning it with different sized pulleys. This would mean I wouldn't need an oil supply but I'd need to do more fabricating with a bearing setup to support the shaft. I've also been told now that I will need to fill the carb float with expanding foam or similar to prevent it from collapsing. I'll also need to add 5lbs of fuel pressure to what I currently have to run 5lbs of boost.
I'll try to keep you updated but I think I'm just gonna get going on it and not keep boring you with these little details. Vanguard... how do I measure the boost? I see boost gauges in Summit catalog. Are they just a sender in the airstream?

[vanguard]

You're best to stick with a 2.2L since (134 ci = 2.2L). A 1.8 or 1.6 is going to be too small. I'm not sure what you mean about pulleys though or what a radiator cap has to do with anything. Turbochargers don't have pulleys, but superchargers do. And the radiator cap pressure does not have any relationship to the boosting, unless you were somehow thinking of making your own wastegate, but I can't see how you would do that.

There are already designed and commercially available remote wastegates, but I can't remember the name. The work the same way but are not integral to the turbine housing.

I'm not in anyway trying to be critical and like the idea of experimentation, but I think I would suggest that if you want to keep the f-head and want more power you might consider sticking with conventional performance improvements aka a weber, headers, maybe a perktronix.

[davet]

A radiator cap assembly gets spliced between the turbo and the carb. It does not have anything to do with the radiator or the cooling. As far as the pulleys go I would rig up a turbo assembly with a small pulley on the end to drive it rather than exhaust gases. That is a secondary plan and if I run into trouble with too many smaller side problems (feeding enough fuel, leaking carb etc) I'll scrap the whole plan. I'll try the conventional setup first.
I'm not going the Weber route as I like how my YF runs off road. I looked into the headers but they will interfere with my power steering setup. I called Petronix and they could not find a kit for my distributor number and could not tell me which of their kits would work on it.

[vanguard]

The Paxton/Vortech superchargers are basically pully driven turbos with internal lubrication and no turbine side, but they cost many $$$. I would throw out the radiator cap idea as you want to keep the intake path as free as possible. Boost control (integral wastegate or otherwise) works via a pressure operated diapraghm.

When a vent on the compressor side reaches a set pressure, it opens a diaprahgm that is connected to a valve built into the turbine housing. Open the valve lets the exhaust gasses bypass the turbine wheel which serves to prevent pressure rising past a certain point.

I'd bet that someone on the board can help you determine the right perktronix for your distributor.

Having worked for Garrett, I could have basically had the turbo for free and I had a lot of turbo engineers to consult (costing me only :beer: ) and I still decided it was cheaper to go the V6 route rather than turbocharging the :hurrican: . Having said all that, ask away if you have more questions.

[53WillysM38A1]

I have read this several times in the past thinking of things to do for the F-head in my jeep. How to get more power out of this motor without replacing it? I just like that little motor. I have recently purchased the Weber Carb, rebuilt the motor, converted to 12v and installed the Pertronix to replace the points, and about to order the header from CliffordPerfomance.net

I also stumbled across this page on YouTube of 2 videos of a guy who actually installed a turbo on his 55 F-head and thought it would be a great addition to this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/user/55m38a1

Hopefully it will still be there for everyone to view