225 W/Pro-jection

[msbweiland]

Well, I was bored the other night and started surfing E-bay. I found a guy in Auburn, WA that is selling a 67-3B. I had to look twice at the ad because it had a 225 with the pro-jection :shock: . He wasn't sure if it was odd fire (I don't think they made even fire 225's?). I sent him an e-mail and he said he had the system sitting in his garage and decided to throw it on. It's the older 2bbl. setup with the knobs on the box. According to him it runs fine. It's wired in just like the instructions say to the dist (now HEI).
I'm trying to talk the wife into buying me one for X-mas but, I need tools to do some home repairs :roll: . I'll give it a try when I come up with the $ and let you'all know how it goes. Anyone need a set of almost new BFG AT's? :twisted:

[Boyink]

I traded email a few years ago with another guy running pro-jection on a 225. Said he just put some smaller jets in it.

Wonder what those older systems sell for these days? And what type of manifold required?

[mruta]

Not too long ago I chatted with a guy who had an early 5 with a Pro Jection setup on it. He also said it ran fine. A guy in my local club has an older system on his Dodge 360 and loves it. He offered to let me try it out on my :v6: . I might take him up on it once I am driving again. He says they can be had for around $200 if you shop ebay and other classifieds. I still think I am going to use the TBI route because the pro jection has no way to sense engine load and I am a dork. :D

[msbweiland]

I thought the Pro-Jections used some sort of mainifold pressure sensor so they could determine load? Maybe a Vortech 350 would be a better bet ;) .

[DanStew]

I was looking at the Megasquirt homebrew fuel injection for my 4.1L. I have been looking a little into it, and it seems to be pretty cool. I will have to hunt down the link for the website.

[H8PAVMNT]

Megasquirt


You have a short dipstick. Would using a Megasquirt and a short dipstick pose a problem for you Dan?

:rotflmao:

[DanStew]

no problem.. it should come out the same PSI as always. :D :D :D :D

[blevisay]

Copperheads??????????
:rotflmao:

[nickmil]

The early Non-digital Pro-Jections used rpm, coolant temp, throttle position, and with the add-on kit, an O2 sensor to make self adjustments. Without the O2 add on kit (closed loop) they don't self adjust as well. Especially for altitude. They can be manually adjusted however at the computer. Despite this they work pretty well. Never tried one on an odd-fire though. I would think the older set up would work better on an oddfire than a digital though because of the complexity of the newer system and the amount of control the computer has. Seems like the computer would get confused with the odd crank firing pattern without some serious distributor work.
I'd like to see someone change jet sizes on the Pro-Jection, it doesn't have jets! ;) They may have changed the injectors and put a smaller flow rated set in though.

I paid $150 for the set up I have sitting on the shelf right now and that came with everything but the coolant sensor. Even got the manual and fuel pump with it! That was several years ago at a swap meet. I've seen them occasionally since then for about the same price. Sometimes with more goodies than I got with mine! :cry: Nickmil.

[msbweiland]

Wanna sell it? :twisted: :D

[Boyink]

Hmmm....new tub....or Projection....if a used one bit me in the butt right now for $150 I'd be hard pressed to pass it up...

[Mcruff]

You know this topic has popped up so many times I think some of us ought to get on the phone and discuss a means of building a universal junkyard kit to put TBI on our Dauntless and Hurricane engines. It can't possibly be that hard. I would be willing to make brackets to make an RPM sensor for the front of the motor and adapters for the manifolds for the cost of materials and shipping. Surely someone on here knows how to sort out the electronics and the right model of TBI unit to use. What do you guys say is anyone else interested? I would think we could get them working for a couple hundred dollars.

[Boyink]

I'd sure love it if we did, but am clueless when it comes to wrenching at that level (I can follow directions, thats about it... :roll: )

I could do anything related to getting info out on the web...

[blevisay]

Mike I have often thought the same thing....It seems GM is pretty tight lipped about the computer codes in the ECM......

[DanStew]

I am actually eager to leanr fuel injection now. I have shunned wiring and computers for the jeeps but i am starting to understand the differnt sensors now :)

Wasnt Steve in Denver already installing an oddfire fuel injection on his motor?? Steve you out there???

[jzeber]

I have a friend with a 74 TLC, original straight six that he put a Chev. injection system on. It is obviously a completely different set up but he told me he could make one for my 71 that would work. I'll ask him what it is out of and let you all know.

[mruta]

Hey Mike, let's do it! I know a guy who did it on his engine but unfortunately got rid of all the parts. Basically, if you can scavenge a TBI system (with ECM, electronics and harness) off of a 4.3L V6 (93-94 is probably the best choice), all it takes is a crank sensor and the bracket we talked about (oops- electric fuel pump also). You don't need to find out about computer codes or programming because the whole point of it is to fool the ECM into thinking it is still operating on a 4.3, thus it uses the same logic and strategies. I have two weeks off for Christmas- my place or yours?!?!?!?

mruta

[H8PAVMNT]

Don't forget:



walking until Saginaw swap is done... then on to Tellico in May!!!


;)

[Project71-5]

He's got plenty of time :twisted:

[mruta]

The plate has been welded, the box is in, the column has been mounted. With a steering shaft my Jeep will be able to drive on its own. Stopping is another issue altogether though :D . I'm a newbie to fabrication but EFI is my specialty.

[Mcruff]

I will when I'm off tommorrow look into what it will take to make a crank sensor bracket and look at some crank sensors from a friend of mines S10 pickup and see what I can do. I will also call to a friends junkyard and see if there are any TBI units that can be used for cheap. Get back to you in a couple of days.

[msbweiland]

I might be interested in trying to make something work if the price is right on the parts. They don't have much of that kind of stuff here locally in the Junkyards. :evil: Makes it hard to retro-fit old rigs if all you have is old parts to swap on. :roll:

[ScottP66CJ]

A member on this board has done this, steverdenver. I traded some emails with him in the past researching the possibility of doing this. The one issue I counld not get past was what steve calls a "black box" that takes the crank trigger signal and converts it into something that the computer can understand. Maybe steve can chime in hear with his knowledge.

Scott

[Dan66cj5]

This sounds very intresting.. Im more intrested in swapping on stock TBI parts.. cuz it'll be cheaper and you can get the stuff from the junkyard.



all it takes is a crank sensor


Does this mean.. it'll be distributor-less ? Kewl :) but, I like my HEI.. So, it'll have a coil pack 3 or 6 ? gap the plugs to .060 ? What about a knock sensor ? So it'll run the timing advance just right ? O2 sensor will be easy.. Throttle posistion sensor.. will it require that stuff ? water temp sensor, etc ?

Ok, I'm intrested.. count me in :)

[mruta]

This sounds very intresting.. Im more intrested in swapping on stock TBI parts.. cuz it'll be cheaper and you can get the stuff from the junkyard.



all it takes is a crank sensor




Does this mean.. it'll be distributor-less ? Kewl :) but, I like my HEI.. So, it'll have a coil pack 3 or 6 ? gap the plugs to .060 ? What about a knock sensor ? So it'll run the timing advance just right ?

It will not be distributorless. You can and probably should keep your HEI. The TBI system will not control the ignition but it does require an input from the ignition, the RPM signal, to determine engine speed.



O2 sensor will be easy.. Throttle posistion sensor.. will it require that stuff ? water temp sensor, etc ?


Basically, you rob all of the sensors off of the donor TBI system since the whole idea of this conversion is to keep the ECM happy in thinking it is still on a 4.3L. Converting an even fire engine wouldn't require the crank sensor setup since the ignition firing events occur at even intervals. Since the odd fire engine fires cylinders at alternating intervals, the TBI ECM cannot determine what RPM the engine is truly turning.



IIRC, Stever had a chip specially burned for his setup for one reason or another. The way I hope to do it shouldn't require that. The guy I know did it exactly like we are talking about here and used nothing but GM parts with the exception of the crank sensor and the homemade bracket. I do seem to think the sensor used for the crank was a Chrysler VSS or something similar though. I'll give him a call to see what he says.

[Mcruff]

Found this link while at work tonight. Think one of us needs to call them and play 20 questions and see how special this kit really is and if it is very easy to build on our own based on the the answers we get from them.

http://www.affordable-fuel-injection.com/off-road.htm

[ScottP66CJ]

Found this link while at work tonight. Think one of us needs to call them and play 20 questions and see how special this kit really is and if it is very easy to build on our own based on the the answers we get from them.

http://www.affordable-fuel-injection.com/off-road.htm

Mcruff,

Affordable was who steve worked with on his setup. They did create a kit but the cost was somewhere around $1000.00. The setup that steve ended up with was the basis behind the affordable kit.

[Boyink]

Last I checked the "affordable" route was closer to $1500....figured an engine swap to TBI 4.3 would be cheaper...

[Zoomer]

Have you guys considered the DIY MegaSquirt controller (http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html)? There's also a Yahoo group. It's cheap and fully programmable. I'm also into Datsun ZCars, and there are several people on a forum I belong to that are running this on both N/A and turbo cars and are quite pleased with the system. I'm an electrical engineer and am willing to help if we need any custom circuitry. I think EFI on the Dauntless would be great!

Mark

[mruta]

In my opinion, $1000 is not affordable, for me anyway. If I go the whole engine swap route, I'm going Vortec 4.3 rahter than TBI though.

[Project71-5]

Yeah $1000 to me is not affordable :? I would think that if it could be done for under 5-600 then that would be good. Heck the local paper had a 98 4.3 with computer and tranny for $800

[sparky]

The latest Wheels For you had a '55 CJ-5 on an '87 Blazer frame /w a Fuel injected V6 for $2800...

Why does that show up now? :rotflmao:

[Dan66cj5]

Well, I checked out affordable's website.. and the FAQ.. and i learned a few things :)

TBI systems include:

TBI unit, ECM with specially calibrated chip, custom built wiring harness, external electric fuel pump, fuel pump relay, coolant sensor, MAP sensor and O2 sensor.

So, is this what we are looking at for TBI conversion on the :v6: ?

We'll just use the 4.3 ECM and hardness.. and the sensors.

As for the crank sensor.. i dont see why we'll need that. Cant you just use the "tach" plug from the HEI dist to provide engien RPM to the ECM ? I read on affordable's FAQ, that they use this in some cases.. and some cases not..

[mruta]

As for the crank sensor.. i dont see why we'll need that. Cant you just use the "tach" plug from the HEI dist to provide engien RPM to the ECM ? I read on affordable's FAQ, that they use this in some cases.. and some cases not..

In a word, no. The tach signal on the odd fire engine will not work because the ignition does not fire in evenly spaced intervals. Because of this, the ECM can't calculate the engine speed. This is not a problem with even fire engines. On an even fire 231, you could use the tach (aka RPM) signal. The ECM looks at the time between the ignition events to determine engine speed.

mruta

[Boyink]

What would it take to either re-program the ECM, or make a black box that would "smooth out" the odd-fire pulses into something the ECM likes?

[Mcruff]

Guys I wasn't going to even consider buying one from them, (remember me and a Jew invented copper wire fighting over a penny), I would never spend that kind of money on something like that, just call them, sound interested and play 20 questions to get a little info on there design, to build and or work out the bugs on our setup is all I was after.
I have a friend of mine who did something similar to what we are doing and instead of using a magnetic crank trigger he used a photo eye to pulse off of the timing mark on the front of the engine and he said it worked fine.
The crank trigger or photo eye is the only way you are going to get an even pulse for the computers RPM needs, this is very simple to build as far as I can tell.

[timgr]

I'm assuming that the odd-fire has an asymmetry between the odd and even pulses? It'd be easy to drop every other tach pulse (and keep the evenly spaced even or odd pulses) but synthesizing the dropped in-between pulse would be trickier. Certainly with enough circuitry you could make something that would extrapolate the dropped pulses. Potential PITA IMO.

It might be easier to simply build a crank sensor from a flywheel or crank pulley/balancer and scrounged parts.

[nickmil]

I would recommend using a magnetic trigger if you pursue this. The optical pickups are too susceptible to interruptions due to dust, water, mud, etc. Have had similar problems with aftermarket distributors that use the same set up. Nickmil.

[James P. Enderwies]

WOW! After reading all this, the old 2G looks REAL GOOD! :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

[DanStew]

The 2G is actually a very good carb. Very simple and very reliable. If i had the stock 225 still i would probably keep it. they do good on angles, but within reason. if you ride the "Extreme" stuff the 2G will probably show its limitations, but then again there would be nothing better than a stock 225 and 2G in a rock crawler just winning competitions :D :D :D

[Mcruff]

Now James come on you play with live steam and that ain't cheap in anybodys book. :shock:
But seriously I do believe that we can come up with a working viable system for about $200 or less depending on the junkyard parts cost. By making our own crank trigger and adapter plate and using a specific system from a vehicle in the junk yard.

[ScottP66CJ]

I'm assuming that the odd-fire has an asymmetry between the odd and even pulses? It'd be easy to drop every other tach pulse (and keep the evenly spaced even or odd pulses) but synthesizing the dropped in-between pulse would be trickier. Certainly with enough circuitry you could make something that would extrapolate the dropped pulses. Potential PITA IMO.

This is similar to what the odd fire program for the Megasquirt does. Basically it takes an average of all 6 fires and evenly spaces them. This is done within the computer.

[mruta]

To get the evenly spaced RPM signal, no reflash or black box is needed. Too complicated and too much to go wrong IMO. The way I've been planning to do it was to have McRuff hook me up with a super custom bracket to mount a sensor near the harmonic balancer. I have a guy in Indy who puts these "steel slugs" into the balancer exactly 120 degrees apart and presto, we have a genuine imitation 4.3L RPM signal! The only non-shelf parts would be McRuff's bracket and modifed balancer. I planned to have the guy in Indy make up my balancer and then ship it to McRuff so he could make a copy of it. My major holdup was that my balancer wasn't in very good shape. Maybe I'll just ship it off to Mike and have him go at it as an experiment. Whaddayathink Mike? ;)

[ScottP66CJ]

To get the evenly spaced RPM signal, no reflash or black box is needed. Too complicated and too much to go wrong IMO. The way I've been planning to do it was to have McRuff hook me up with a super custom bracket to mount a sensor near the harmonic balancer. I have a guy in Indy who puts these "steel slugs" into the balancer exactly 120 degrees apart and presto, we have a genuine imitation 4.3L RPM signal! The only non-shelf parts would be McRuff's bracket and modifed balancer. I planned to have the guy in Indy make up my balancer and then ship it to McRuff so he could make a copy of it. My major holdup was that my balancer wasn't in very good shape. Maybe I'll just ship it off to Mike and have him go at it as an experiment. Whaddayathink Mike? ;)

This sounds interesting.

How do the steel slugs work? Aren't you just putting steel slugs into
steel?

Tell me more. I am getting way to excitted about how this is progressing. I have been researhing this topic for 2 years.

[msbweiland]

HMM, need any help with this? I'd be interested in doing what I can. :D

[ScottP66CJ]

What harmonic balancer pickup were you guys going to use? What application?

Please let me know how I can help in this endevor. I am willing and able. :beer:

[ScottP66CJ]

OK I just answered my own question by going back and rereading the post. You are going to start with S10 crank pickup assemblies.

Just throwing this out there, does anyone know if all crank sensors send the same volt and/or amp signal to the computer? Just want to make sure the computer will be able to read the sensor correctly.

[Mcruff]

I'm game, send me the balancer and the slugs (magnets) and tell me where you want them in relation to the crankshaft keyway and I will get on it. What are we going to use for the sensor for the bracket I'm going to make, I really need to know what to get or use so that I have it to build the bracket with. I'm kinda of excited about getting to work on this thing.
I have always thought that this would wake the 225 up real well. The only other thing I was wondering is does the intake manifold on the 4.3 work like the 225 as far as being a dual plane manifold with the runners leading to the right cylinders when comparing the 2 motors.

[Boyink]

I was wondering about manifolds - will we be able to use the original, or need an adapted 4BBL?

[Dan66cj5]

I was talking to a friend.. and he told me about this MSD product.. Its a coil pack conversion, and it would replace the distributor. It comes with a distributor plug that does 3 things: drives the oil pump, plugs the hole, and has a sensor for the computer that sends the pulses the computer needs. But he told me he only knows MSD has it for the small blocks.. but maybe they got it for buicks too ! Now, would this thing do the trick ?

[ScottP66CJ]

I was talking to a friend.. and he told me about this MSD product.. Its a coil pack conversion, and it would replace the distributor. It comes with a distributor plug that does 3 things: drives the oil pump, plugs the hole, and has a sensor for the computer that sends the pulses the computer needs. But he told me he only knows MSD has it for the small blocks.. but maybe they got it for buicks too ! Now, would this thing do the trick ?

It probably would, but for us "budget minded" guys that would probably not be a solution. But for those that are looking for an upgrade for the igition also that might work. I kind of doubt that MSD has one for the odd fire though.

[mruta]

OK I just answered my own question by going back and rereading the post. You are going to start with S10 crank pickup assemblies.

Just throwing this out there, does anyone know if all crank sensors send the same volt and/or amp signal to the computer? Just want to make sure the computer will be able to read the sensor correctly.

Scott, we are going to do something totally custom here using a McRuff bracket, modified Dauntless harmonic balancer and a generic sensor. I think that the sensor we need is a Chrysler VSS but I am waiting for a verification on that.


I was wondering about manifolds - will we be able to use the original, or need an adapted 4BBL?

I'm almost positive we'll end up reusing the original 2BBL manifold although it may require a spacer.

Something to consider- many people value the Dauntless V6 for its ability to idle down to a very low RPM with the heavy flywheel. With the TBI setup, the idle air control motor isn't going to allow that with the factory GM calibration. I think that a custom burn might allow it to idle slower although I have no idea how well that would work due to reversion in the intake. Also, the guy I know who did this to his engine said it didn't do much to increase power although it did make it run better.

mruta

[Boyink]

I'm not looking for HP gain so much as better all round starting/idling in cold weather especially. Not having a working choke is a real pain...

[ScottP66CJ]

Something to consider- many people value the Dauntless V6 for its ability to idle down to a very low RPM with the heavy flywheel. With the TBI setup, the idle air control motor isn't going to allow that with the factory GM calibration. I think that a custom burn might allow it to idle slower although I have no idea how well that would work due to reversion in the intake. mruta

Ok, help me out here. What does reversion in the intake mean?

[Mcruff]

Mike I also think that we should shoot for using a TBI setup off of a Chevy ASTRO van instead of an S-10 , because all the ASTRO vans I have ever seen and the (2) I owned had 4.3 Vortec engines in them where as the S-10's had 4 cylinder and the 2.8 and 4.3 v6's in them, I think for someone scrounging the yards it would be easier to spot knowing thats the only motor available in the application. Reversion is caused by the overlap in th camshaft, when an exhaust or intake valve somewhere else in the firing order stalls or slows the intake charge elsewhere in the motor and actually causes the motor to suck some of the fuel somewhere else that it is not needed at that time, low Rpm is usually the culprit on highly tuned intake and carburetion systems. This is the best way I know to explain it!!

Mike I also need to know if the 3 sensors are contained (shielded in brass, copper or plastic)) and designed to be pressed in the balancer are they going to be epoxied in place, and the epoxy is the shielding medium.

[vanguard]

If its helpful, I purchased Novak's book on installing fuel injected engines, if you guys have picked a head guru, I would be happy to send it along.

Not sure how helpful it would be though.

[ScottP66CJ]

I agree with going for the Astrovan 4.3. Those are all over the place.

[nickmil]

Vortec V-6's are not standard TBI. They are a modified port injection system that require too many inputs for what you want to do. In '86 The Astro's became TBI. Not sure what year they quit but would say early to mid '90's I believe when the Vortec's came out which would be around '95-'96 or thereabouts. The Vortec 4.3 I have for another project is a '96 and is out of an S-10 pickup. Astro's are everywhere and should be able to pick up a trashed one for pretty cheap or find them in the U-pull-it yards. Nickmil.

[ehauff]

How about the gm 4 cyl in the s-10 pickups? Smaller injector, might help. Simpler to i think. Like a late 80's? just an idea.

[James P. Enderwies]

Now James come on you play with live steam and that ain't cheap in anybodys book. :shock:
But seriously I do believe that we can come up with a working viable system for about $200 or less depending on the junkyard parts cost. By making our own crank trigger and adapter plate and using a specific system from a vehicle in the junk yard.

Mcruff: Fellow 9" SB owner, I agree totally! Funny thing, when I first talked to the PO of my Jeep, he said he put an HEI on it. I ask if he had the orig. dist.. He said he would look for it. He couldn't find it! I'm glad he didn't! I love the HEI! It's the same thing I have on my Yukon, except the Yukon has a seperate coil. Very simple and reliable.

I guess I'm going "retro" in my old age. I like things simple. The old 2G works fine and I know them like the "back of my hand"! From the old Jeeps that I drove, not owned but drove, these :v6: are a little hot rod! :D

My Yukon had TBI on it and it has worked flawsely since I've owned it. If it had a carb, I would have probablly rebuilt it twice and maybe even replaced it once. My cousin (we ordered 2 Yukons, same car, same time, same dealer) has over 100,000 miles on his and the TBI is still going strong. Can't beat that for reliability! :D

[Mcruff]

Nick, thanks for the input, I had an 89 and a 92 model Astro van and both of them were TBI systems with 150 and 170 hp ratings. The 89 model was very simple looking in its design so that might be a good place to start, the 92 model had a different airbox and alot more hardware under the hood, don't know if it was all TBI related though.
Mruta you need to give me a call or drop me an e-mail as to what is available near you as compared to whats available near me and compare prices and what all we will need to start this setup with off of the donor vehicle.

[mruta]

McRuff- I'll give you a call tomorrow after work if that's okay. I'm waiting to hear back from a guy about the sensor and a possible wiring harness source...

[ScottP66CJ]

Any updates guys?

Scott

[mruta]

Arrrrgghh! Still waiting on my guy to let me know about the over the counter sensor. I'm 99% sure it's a Chrysler VSS but don't know the year/make/model or if it even matters for this project.....


I'm going to call another "guru" and see what he says....

[nickmil]

Arrrrgghh! Still waiting on my guy to let me know about the over the counter sensor. I'm 99% sure it's a Chrysler VSS but don't know the year/make/model or if it even matters for this project.....


I'm going to call another "guru" and see what he says....

Painless Wiring makes a vss that goes in line with the speedo cable. That's what I'm using on my CJ-6. You might also check around to some of the other aftermarket Fool Injection suppliers. There is another one out there that makes one cheaper than the Painless unit (found this out after I had already bought the Painless unit).
Nickmil.

[cj51969]

Wow the old fuel injection thing is going again..... :shock:
Just want to through one thing out there... Oddfires are oddfires because they don't fire evenly... right? One of the advantages of fuel injection is that it squirts fuel in pulses timed to when the intake valves are opening... right? By using a crank sensor to fool it into squirting on an even rhythm to make it work won't that in fact cause it to squirt at times when there won't be a valve open? Won't that cause there to be too much fuel at some times and not enough at others? I'd think that it might be OK at higher rpms but it would make for a very rough idle especialy when the engine is cold. I'll need to think this through a little more but maybe 2 triggers? I'll need to reread again when I'm more awake - http://home.off-road.com/~merls_garage/oddfire.html but a trigger at 90 & 150? or would it need to ignore the triggers sometimes?
Oh 1 more thing to throw out there... isn't one of the newer Dodge engines used in the dakotas an oddfire?.... maybe adapting one of those?
Mike B.

[JohnyJeep]

There is a company called stealth conversions that makes a VSS. I used it when I put an 89 corvette TPI motor in my ex wifes car. Don't know if yo uneed info or not just in case this helps.

[mruta]

Just want to through one thing out there... Oddfires are oddfires because they don't fire evenly... right? One of the advantages of fuel injection is that it squirts fuel in pulses timed to when the intake valves are opening... right? By using a crank sensor to fool it into squirting on an even rhythm to make it work won't that in fact cause it to squirt at times when there won't be a valve open? Won't that cause there to be too much fuel at some times and not enough at others? I'd think that it might be OK at higher rpms but it would make for a very rough idle especialy when the engine is cold. I'll need to think this through a little more but maybe 2 triggers? I'll need to reread again when I'm more awake - http://home.off-road.com/~merls_garage/oddfire.html but a trigger at 90 & 150? or would it need to ignore the triggers sometimes?
Oh 1 more thing to throw out there... isn't one of the newer Dodge engines used in the dakotas an oddfire?.... maybe adapting one of those?
Mike B.

Good to hear from you again Mike. In a nutshell, the absolute simplest explanation of TBI operation that I've been able to come up with is: TBI basically acts like a big electronic carburetor without a float, needles, choke or any of the other stuff that people don't like about carbs. Throttle body systems just shoot fuel into the intake manifold- much like a carburetor but much more precisely. I'm slowly writing an explanation of how to get TBI to work on our engines with hopes that I might be able to put it up on Sparky's site one day....

mruta

[Mcruff]

Just got back from Yankee's salvage yard, picked up (2) sm420's for Jim McCarty and his friend for $150, talked to Yankee about a TBI unit and ECU to run it plus the wiring pigtail, he will sell me one off of an S10 or Astro van for $100 all inclusive plus a few bucks for the O2 sensor and temp probe.
I think I will be back in a week or 2 to buy a setup to start working with.

The 3.9 dodge engine is suppose to be oddfire as well as the Viper engine, but Dodge never used TBI so that would be difficult.
As far as the TBI unit squirting fuel when a valve is not open, think about the length of time you are talking about , 30 degrees of crank rotation on an engine that idles at 650-700 rpm thats 10-11 rotations every second at idle speed, 30 degrees of rotation on the crank even if it ran 4 times faster than the cam is still within fractions of a second for the TBI to squirt fuel for combustion even at idle speed.

[nickmil]

Yup, what Mcruff, said. There are even port fuel injection systems that constantly squirt fuel in the system even when the valves are open. As was said, think of TBI as an electronic carburetor with no floats or fuel sloshing around, that is much more accurately metered by the O2 sensor and computer for more efficiency versus a carburetor that relies on engine vacuum to operate correctly. Nickmil.

[Boyink]

Ran across this...

http://www.4x4wire.com/events/2003/avalanche_ranch/ranch_visit/


The next morning I started the jeep and it was running terrible, no power and would cut in and out of rough and extremely rough (odd-fire 225 Buick)

Then


The fuel filters were ok, the pump pressure OK, replacing all the plugs made no difference... Look at the injector spray... Sure enough, first time I’ve ever had a Holley injector ever fail. Then, did I pack that spare that literally has been kicking around in the bottom of 5 different tool boxes wrapped up in electrical tape? YES! Will it work? YES! Back in business!

The author is Joshua Lowenstein, superdawg@4x4wire.com. Might want to shoot him a note and see what setup he's had, and what issues, etc.

[ScottP66CJ]

I thought I would bring this one back to life.

Any updates??

Bueller...Bueller............

[vanguard]

Not an update, but I do remember reading an article in the last year where they used a holley projection setup on an F-head. Now if they can do that, you gotta be able to FI an oddfire.

[michigan_pinstripes]

I've often wondered about building a TBI conversion using existing junk yard parts and CNC made adapters on the manifold. It would take some serious experimenting! ECM systems are really pretty simple once you understand the basics.

Voltage in from sensors, Voltage out for fuel adjustment

These guys may know something: http://www.casperselectronics.com/

[Mcruff]

No, I have been so busy lately that I haven't had a chance to go back to the junkyard and get the parts but I still intend to do this in the near future. We just got conformation on a new to us CNC at work today, big sucker, will be able to put about 8,000 lbs on the table of it, this means in a month or so I should to be able to start making some more complicated parts, with only manual machines and a very limited amount of equipment making things now is very time consuming but it won't be in a month or so.

[BlueFlu]

I know this has been well over a year, any updates guys?

[Dybgpn]

My question still hasn't been addressed. Does this system required a 4bbl manifold or can you use a mounting plate adaptor.

[Mcruff]

You can use a mounting adapter, boughten if you can find one, made if you have access.

[OrangeCJ5]

Okay Guys, one of the things I have wanted since day one on my Jeep is fuel-injection. I am all about simplicity and not having to re-invent the wheel. I read everything I could find here and on the internet about fuel-injecting one of these V6's. I came to the conclustion that the simplest most effective way was Holley ProJection. I bought a kit off Ebay, send a PM to smiley1049 who also runs ProJection to ask one qeustion and installed it this week. The install went smooth as silk and other than a fuel delivery issue (which I think is related to the fuel hose routing) this kit works perfectly. If I spray carb cleaner in the TB it runs like a champ. You DO need a 4bbl. manifold but I already had the Offy dual plane installed so it wasn't a big deal. From my research it seems that the TBI doesn't care about the odd-fire because it's just TBI, not Multi-Port, it only cares what the RPM's are not the timing spaces or anything else. I just tapped into my HEI tach line and that was that. Also, I read that the because of the greater volume inside the dual plane Offy manifold, there is always fuel/air mixture in there even though the timing pulses are irregular. I will be figuring out why I don't have fuel delivery tomorrow and doing some final tuning. From what I have seen so far on my Jeep, this is going to work just fine.
Mike

[lynn]

Keep us posted Mike!! Got pics??????

[OrangeCJ5]

I will snap some this afternoon.

[OrangeCJ5]

Okay, here's where I am at. Hopefully one of you guys can give me some direction so I can take some pics. I have the kit completely installed and everything is working except one thing. I can't seem to get the electric fuel pump primed. It is installed in the passenger frame rail below the level of the fuel tank. The fuel line doesn't make any uphill bends but I can't get fuel into the pump. Anyone have any ideas on how to get this primed? I think if I can get it primed, I am home free.
Mike

[trailwing]

I haven't read the entire thread, so bear with me.

1) Make sure the fuel pump isn't wired backwards. I have a "friend" that did this. It spins backwards and sounds like its running.

2) OEM computers just run the pump a couple seconds when you first hit the switch. It sometimes helps to crack the input line and cycle the switch many times. Input to the TBI that is...

[michigan_pinstripes]

Its a Buick.... pack the fuel pump with vaseline...

NOOOOO jus' Kidding! :D

Electric fuel pumps also work better closer to the tank. Poor suckers but good pushers.

[OrangeCJ5]

Okay, here is where I am at. I pulled the line going into the filter just before the pump and there was gas in it. So then I pulled the line after the pump and it was dry. I pulled the line feeding the pump and there was gas in the pump. When I hit the ignition to cycle the pump, gas came out the wrong end. What does this mean? I double checked all the wiring, and the pump is wired according to the instructions. Is the pump bad or do you think I need to reverse the + and - wires on the pump? I tried installing the pump opposite the flow arrow since that was the direction gas was coming out and that didn't do the trick. Thanks for the help. We are "this" close....
Mike

[michigan_pinstripes]

Doubt its bad. It does sound like a polarity thing but it's hard to go against the instructions. w-w-w-wait.... what are you doing reading the instructions? Are we not men? ;) IIWM, I'd try reversing. Up to you

[Dummy]

I'd yank that pump out of the vehicle and do some testing independent of the Holley wiring harness. Rig up a gas can and a battery to feed the pump 12V and see if it's flowing fuel. If you have one, you can also use an inline fuel pressure gauge on the output. That'll let you know whether or not the problem is in the pump or the Holley harness/software.

If the pump works fine outside of the vehicle, give the Holley tech line a call. They're really good about helping their customers out, even with older systems. It's been a long, long time since I've messed with a Projection system. Can't remember if it's got a low oil pressure cutoff or someting similar that could be tripping the fuel pump off.

[Boyink]

Is the gas tank venting?

Pull the gas cap off and try again...

[AKCJ]

"When I hit the ignition to cycle the pump, gas came out the wrong end. What does this mean?"

It means your wires are reversed.

"Is the pump bad or do you think I need to reverse the + and - wires on the pump?"

I think you need to reverse the wires.

"I tried installing the pump opposite the flow arrow"

I think this is a bad idea. In general most pump will flow either way but will flow much better the correct way.

[OrangeCJ5]

"When I hit the ignition to cycle the pump, gas came out the wrong end. What does this mean?"

It means your wires are reversed.

"Is the pump bad or do you think I need to reverse the + and - wires on the pump?"

I think you need to reverse the wires.

"I tried installing the pump opposite the flow arrow"

I think this is a bad idea. In general most pump will flow either way but will flow much better the correct way.

This post made me laugh. I think you are right and I will be reversing the wires first thing after work today. Thanks again and I'll let you all know this afternoon.
Mike

[AKCJ]

Mike,
Yes, it made me laugh also. I "discovered" the reversed wires problem while on a trail ride. A guy overheated his auto tranny which caused a fire which burned some of his wiring. We repaired the wiring somewhat but he couldn't get the engine to start & I happened to be standing next to the gas tank filler so I heard the sound of "bubbling" from his gas tank. When I mentioned this to the others they all looked at each other and said "we wired the fuel pump backwards". Anyway, that's how I learned about this.
Jerry

[OrangeCJ5]

OKAY! Big thanks to all of you who chimed in on the fuel pump issue. It was wired backwards per Holley's printed instructions. After I reversed the wires and put it all back together, it fired on the first turn of the key. I began the tuning procedure but found out my electrical tester has a bad fuse. So, I am off the RadioShack to get a new one and a spare. Pictures of the install are coming.
Mike

[Vhunter]

Ok, what happened to this project? I would really like to know how it turned out. What you used, and how to duplicate it if your conversion is working well. Man, don't leave us in the dark, we have been waiting for the out come. It is an interesting project!!!

[OrangeCJ5]

Sorry. I am still in the tuning stages. I can't seem to get my TPS (throttle position sensor) adjusted properly. I get a different answer from Holley every time I call. It's getting frustrating. The good news is that it runs. It just runs really rich and floods out after starting it. It's all related to that TPS. I will have pics and more details after I get it dialed in. FYI: Holley just came out with a Commander 950, 400 cfm 2-barrel kit that looks even more promising. It has a MAP sensor and something else the Pro-Jection doesn't have. It should be completely self adjusting for altitude and everything.

[OrangeCJ5]

Quick update: After trying 4 different TPS and 2 different TB. Holley tech support and I (mostly me) have come to the conclusion that my ECU must be bad. I am working with Holley right now to get the ECU replaced under warranty and then I will let you all know where we stand.
Mike

[lynn]

Thanks for the update Mike...
many of us are lurking with interest... :D
Keep us posted!

[Vhunter]

Okay, so did I miss the part where you said that you are using a Holley TBI. I just want to know what parts you used if it works out all right. Yes, we are excited to hear the out come on this project.

[OrangeCJ5]

Okay, so did I miss the part where you said that you are using a Holley TBI. I just want to know what parts you used if it works out all right. Yes, we are excited to hear the out come on this project.

Yes, it's just their out of the box 2 barrel digital pro jection kit. I think it will work great once I can get the TPS setup.

[OrangeCJ5]

Hopefully someone has some insight for me as I am about out of ideas. I have been trouble getting the TPS adjusted. It's supposed to show .63-.65 volts at idle. After I adjust mine all the way down it still reads 1.02 volts. If I remove the TPS from the TB, the lowest reading I can get is a .91. I have tried 4 different TPS, 2 different TB, and 2 different computers. All with the same results. Could I have a bad meter? I am POSITIVE my grounds are all good. Thanks

Mike

[olywrestle]

So is this a direct swap onto a 2bl odd fire 231?

http://www.holley.com/502-20S.asp

[OrangeCJ5]

You do need a 4 barrel manifold. I have the Offy dual plane manifold. It won't bolt up to the stock 2 barrel manifold. Other than that it is.

[zed]

whatever happened to the project that was going to adapt the s10 or astro v6 tbi and electronix to the 225 oddfire? or did the megasquirt change all that? $800 to $1000 for the holly after market is too rich for me right now.

[OrangeCJ5]

Sorry it's taken so long for my summary. Here it is: The ProJection is installed with the optional closed loop kit (o2 sensor) and runs great. Starts with just a flick of the key, idles great, acceleration is good, runs a little rich at WOT but with a 670 cfm kit it's bound to. You can swap out the injectors and drop it down to a 400 cfm kit which I may do. Here are some pics:

ftp://67.41.175.185/jeep1.jpg

This is a pic of the second fuel filter, the fuel lines and the 02 wiring all inside the passenger frame rail.

ftp://67.41.175.185/jeep2.jpg

This is the controller mounted to the bottom of my heater

ftp://67.41.175.185/jeep3.jpg

Shot of the 02 sensor

ftp://67.41.175.185/jeep5.jpg

TBI with my old air cleaner, relay on firewall and wiring

Fire away with questions and additional picture requests!

Mike

[zed]

looks very nice! good job!

which kit and pt #? which engine is this running? looks like a 225?

[OrangeCJ5]

It's the 502-20S kit. The 2D ProJection. It's on an odd fire 225!

[1stSgt]

So what is the total cost for this setup? I would like to know how it does on the road!

[rookieupgrade1]

I emailed the guy that built the GM TBI system for my 258. He told me that he could build one for the odd fire with a crank pick up sensor for the RPM inputs.

Drawbacks

No timeing adjustments available due to the odd fire.
additional cost due to need for pick up sensor.

We are talking around $1300

I use his kit now on my 258 and it runs fantastic.

Here is his site

http://www.customefis.com/

[Boyink]

We are talking around $1300

Pretty much why I wanted to go with the Chevy 4.3....as the cost of putting FI on the Dauntless would pretty much cover the swap, and you'd have all JY parts.

Sourcing a used Pro-jection system for the :v6: could swing that though...

[rookieupgrade1]

The only problem with all JY parts it the EPROM.

In order to get the prober fuel at the proper RPM the curves have to be reset in the chip to account for the smaller engine.

However I am not sure how this plays in with not haveing any timeing control from the computer. I am certain it can adjust for optimum mixture with the MAP, Coolant, TPS and O2 sensors. but you loose some of the benefits when it is forced to be passive with regards to timing.

It could be done I think.

Anyone consider a Ford control.

My understanding is that a ford engine system is a seperate entity all together from the rest of the chassis electrical.

Could be an easier swap.

I have no knowlage regarding the Ford system however and part availability might be another issue.

[Boyink]

Oh..sorry I wasn't clear. I meant using the whole 4.3., engine, computer, etc. in place of the :v6: . $1300 goes a long way towards a junk Astro van with a good running 4.3.

[OrangeCJ5]

So what is the total cost for this setup? I would like to know how it does on the road!

It was about $950. That was a brand new 2D kit and a brand new closed loop kit. You can do it for hundreds less with used parts.

It goes down the road great, just like with the carb but starts easier and runs smoother. I am excited to take it down to Moab and see how it is off-road since that's why I did this.

[OrangeCJ5]

Oh..sorry I wasn't clear. I meant using the whole 4.3., engine, computer, etc. in place of the :v6: . $1300 goes a long way towards a junk Astro van with a good running 4.3.

Mike,

You could do the Pro Jection for less than half that price.

Mike

[rookieupgrade1]

after talking to a ford tunner, (guy I work with) it sounds like the older ford TBI's used a dist. shaft pickup for its spark signal.

Now if you use the points eliminator setup and taped into it for the EFI computer, it would theortically in turn adjust the timeing through the rpm curve, send the signal to the coil, and..........

Here is where I have a question.

Does the oddfire use an offset inside the cap, (pegs inside are not evenly spaced) to account for the "oddfire"?

If it does we might be in business. The coil and distributer have no idea whats coing on and the computer would "think" it is an even signal due to the pick up on the dist shaft. the coil fires and the cap compensated for the odd fire. the flywheel keeps the RPM's smooth enough that the computer is non the wiser..............

Theory is good.

I'll keep digging, unless the distributer cap IS evenly spaced inside......Still possible though.

[sparky]

I'll keep digging, unless the distributer cap IS evenly spaced inside......Still possible though.
It's staggered so to speak. A V8 cap with two blanked off. That is with HEI. With the points, it's evenly spaced.

http://home.off-road.com/~merls_garage/oddfire.html (http://home.off-road.com/%7Emerls_garage/oddfire.html)

[rookieupgrade1]

cool,

That should make it easyer.

I am still digging into Ford TBI's

most common 3.8's are the 80's tbirds and cougars.

I love diggin :D

[mruta]

whatever happened to the project that was going to adapt the s10 or astro v6 tbi and electronix to the 225 oddfire? or did the megasquirt change all that? $800 to $1000 for the holly after market is too rich for me right now.

I, for one, was planning on this until I came across a complete running 4.3 TBI motor for free.

Anyway, it's really quite simple. The TBI system will only control the fuel if used on a 225- no spark control. You can use your 225 HEI or whatever.

The biggest hurdle is to give the TBI ECM a usable ignition signal. I planned to have McRuff modify a stock harmonic balancer by installing three steel slugs 180 degrees apart from one another. Then use a Chrysler vehicle speed sensor to pick up on the slugs and create an ignition signal for the 4.3 ECM.

The easy way around this is to call Holley (or Summit , Jegs, etc.) and get a crank trigger setup. Run the crank sensor to the ECM input and you're set. This can be done for waaaaay cheaper than $1300. The most expensive part would be the Buick V6 crank trigger from Holley (IIRC ~$250).

[rookieupgrade1]

I, for one, was planning on this until I came across a complete running 4.3 TBI motor for free.

Anyway, it's really quite simple. The TBI system will only control the fuel if used on a 225- no spark control. You can use your 225 HEI or whatever.

The biggest hurdle is to give the TBI ECM a usable ignition signal. I planned to have McRuff modify a stock harmonic balancer by installing three steel slugs 180 degrees apart from one another. Then use a Chrysler vehicle speed sensor to pick up on the slugs and create an ignition signal for the 4.3 ECM.

The easy way around this is to call Holley (or Summit , Jegs, etc.) and get a crank trigger setup. Run the crank sensor to the ECM input and you're set. This can be done for waaaaay cheaper than $1300. The most expensive part would be the Buick V6 crank trigger from Holley (IIRC ~$250).

I agree completely,

Thats why I looks @ Ford.

The ino I have so far is that thier TBI spark signal is off the Distributer shaft. Put a points eliminator system (http://www.pertronix.com/)in and run it to the TBI ECU. the cap does the rest and you still get timeing control.

[OrangeCJ5]

I looked at those crank triggers as well just in case the pro jection kit didn't like the signals it was getting from my tach lead off the HEI but so far so good.
Think if you could put one of those superchargers off a thinderbird 3.8, then we would be in business!

[Boyink]

Mike,

You could do the Pro Jection for less than half that price.

Mike

Don't need to anymore...SSDutch has a carb'd 4.3, and I bought all the OE FI parts with a Holley harness and fuel pump for ~ 1/4 of that price...;)

[rookieupgrade1]

I looked at those crank triggers as well just in case the pro jection kit didn't like the signals it was getting from my tach lead off the HEI but so far so good.
Think if you could put one of those superchargers off a thinderbird 3.8, then we would be in business!

thought had crossed my mind :D


By the way, I did some looking at my dist cap, and the reson why it ran so terribly and I was confused as to the configuration of the cap was because..........the PO put the wrong cap on it.

Would explain the extraordinary rough running.:roll:

[rookieupgrade1]

As long as we are speculatiing.....

with a 9:1 comp ratio we could realistically run about 8psi of boost safely without any internal modifications.



(used to have a thing for inport tuning:roll: glad I out grew that several years ago)

[mruta]

I agree completely,

Thats why I looks @ Ford.

The ino I have so far is that thier TBI spark signal is off the Distributer shaft. Put a points eliminator system (http://www.pertronix.com/)in and run it to the TBI ECU. the cap does the rest and you still get timeing control.


I don't think I follow you. The points or lack thereof doesn't determine timing control. The GM TBI system can control timing; I should say the TBI system can retard the timing. Someone who used to frequent ECJ5 built himself a hybrid 225 OF/4.3 EF distributor to give the ECM a clean ignition signal. Worked like a champ though it still had no timing control. And another thing worth mentioning is that he estimated the cost at somewhere between $3-5K to make another one for someone else. The timing control is a moot point in my opinion anyway. It just allows for the maximum amount of timing without preignition or detonation. Fuel control is much more important for what most of use our Jeeps for.

[rookieupgrade1]

we need some sort of rpm feedback for the ECM to operate.

We are talking about building a crank trigger to give a GM EFI the "rpm" signal it needs when it normally would recieve this from the spark signal.

Ford seems to get this RPM signal from a crank trigger already.

If we use the petronics points modual to sent the the crank signal to the Ford ECM it will make whatever adjustment it needs to to optomice spark, send the signal to the coil, (which is a passive component) and then to the cap that has mechanical consession for the oddfire built into it.

What I don't know is if the signal from the petronics module can be interperated by the ECM. I would wager to guess it can since it is nothing but a simple magnetic pick up just like a crank trigger.

So we get rid of the points (good thing) gain spark time ability and TBI as a stand alone system.

Optimum conditions all around if the facts support the theory.

[rookieupgrade1]

:?

Oh I spent 15 minutes typeing and hit the bak key on the stupid 5 buttom mouse and lost everything.........

[rookieupgrade1]

Finally found a decent source of info.

The Ford EFI uses a stator moduale inside the distribuor with a stator "wheel" for timeing. The wheel is nothing but a sheet metal drum with teeth cut in it that corilate the respective cylinders. the #1 tooth is slightly smaller telling the EEC (thier term for the ECM) when to pulse the injector and fire the spark.

I think that either with the use of an existing wheel, and the stock Distributor cap we can accomodate spark time "mechanically" to bypass any EEC glitch. (in theory)

I did ask if a "modified" wheel that would properly corilate with the oddfire pattern would work, and not throw the EEC into some sort of convulsion. I'll let you know IF I get a responce.

Spark time is adjusted by the factors the other sensors provide so the actuall rotational "time" of the spark should be inconsiquential unless the EEC actively searches for a consistant rotational "time"

Seems that this system is idealy suited for the application since the fuel pulce would ultimatly be perfectly timed with the ingition time.

Sound like progress?

[michigan_pinstripes]

Just a thought starter, not sure how it would work, but has potential with what you are doing --

Late 80's Buick V6 cam sensor. Run a GM distributorless CCC coil pack and module.

http://i15.ebayimg.com/02/i/06/08/5d/74_1.JPG

[OrangeCJ5]

I think the simplest solution to the problem would still be the crank sensor. It wouldn't involve changing the distributor or adapting anything...

[mruta]

we need some sort of rpm feedback for the ECM to operate.

We are talking about building a crank trigger to give a GM EFI the "rpm" signal it needs when it normally would recieve this from the spark signal.

Ford seems to get this RPM signal from a crank trigger already.

If we use the petronics points modual to sent the the crank signal to the Ford ECM it will make whatever adjustment it needs to to optomice spark, send the signal to the coil, (which is a passive component) and then to the cap that has mechanical consession for the oddfire built into it.

What I don't know is if the signal from the petronics module can be interperated by the ECM. I would wager to guess it can since it is nothing but a simple magnetic pick up just like a crank trigger.

So we get rid of the points (good thing) gain spark time ability and TBI as a stand alone system.

Optimum conditions all around if the facts support the theory.


I think we got our lines crossed somewhere. I (and others) had discussed installing a GM TBI system on the oddfire 225 as it is fairly straightforward. There is a guy in my area who did this but took it all out (and sold it) to install an LT1 into his 5. Can't say anything about the Ford systems because I haven't done any research into it since the GM system seems to be a logical choice. On the GM system, you can't use the uneven pulse from the distributor because it uses the spacing between them to determine RPM. You could get it to run (though not well) with the uneven pulse, but the ECM gets "confused" into thinking the RPM is constantly going up and down with each ignition event since the amount of time between them is different.

With or without the even pulse, the GM ECM has no way to retard the timing on a distributor that it wasn't originally equipped with.

An even better way of saying it: the 225 distributors have no way to allow an ECM to control the timing. And again, it's kind of a moot point since the main purpose of going to EFI in the first place (in an early Jeep) is to be able to have a correctly metered supply of fuel going into the cylinders... A carbureted fuel system issue, not an ignition issue.

That was a mouthful! :eek: I think it would be pretty damn cool to see a Ford or any other type of EFI system working well on an oddfire so please don't think I am trying to pee in your cereal here. With the way I write, sometimes I think I might come across a little harsh...

[mruta]

I think the simplest solution to the problem would still be the crank sensor. It wouldn't involve changing the distributor or adapting anything...


X2

And it's cheap, too.

[OrangeCJ5]

mruta,

I agreed with your whole mouthful. I also agree we aren't trying to dismiss the Ford EFI idea as it would be trick. I think the original topic of this thread has been almost solved. A GM TBI from a 4.3 and a crank trigger for the "tach" input and we would be in business. Now, someone needs to try it. I would but..... :)

Mike

[rookieupgrade1]

I agree that in terms of what I have been exposed to (the adapted 4.3 GM system I currently run on my CJ7) and the GM origins of the engine we are discussing that the GM TBI crank triggered system seems logical.

What got me on the tangent of the Ford system is this.....

I had info that the Ford system used some sort of magnetic pick up already to determin RPM, follow up showed that it did.

subsiquently I found out that the same pick up (the drum shaped piece of sheetmetal inside the distributer) controled both the spark input that the computer alters for the coil trigger, and the injector pulse and diration.

Sounded cool, I could gut an ols 84-94 taurus and bolt it into a dauntless and shazamm we are running.

Factors for fabrication.

1 Don't need the Ford distributor just the stator and modified Wheel, adapt them into the dauntless distributor

2 the throttle body to intake adaptor. (I know a machinist that can handle that.......me)

2 possible ways it would work.

1 put the ford dist. guts in a dauntless dist. and the modified wheel works off the get go.

2 the afore mentioned situation minus the modification to the wheel (which in this situation would not be required) and the stock oddfire cap takes care if the unequal spacing.

Either way we still get the timeing ability.

The only reasons I looked into ford are

1 Already has a magnetic pick up for rpm

2 possible to bolt on all JY parts=cheap!

I have an adapted 4.3 so its not a bias thing. Just brainstorming.

No offence ment.....none taken:D

[zed]

It's staggered so to speak. A V8 cap with two blanked off. That is with HEI. With the points, it's evenly spaced.

http://home.off-road.com/~merls_garage/oddfire.html (http://home.off-road.com/%7Emerls_garage/oddfire.html)

more directly to the point here is a link to the inside picture and degrees between each pole
http://home.off-road.com/%7Emerls_garage/oddfire/cap_evnodd.jpg

[zed]

mruta,

I agreed with your whole mouthful. I also agree we aren't trying to dismiss the Ford EFI idea as it would be trick. I think the original topic of this thread has been almost solved. A GM TBI from a 4.3 and a crank trigger for the "tach" input and we would be in business. Now, someone needs to try it. I would but..... :)

Mike

ok but what if you've installed an OF HEI dist in your 225? could you use the tach out plug on that? since it seems to run my relatively cheapo tach now.

[$ sink]

ok but what if you've installed an OF HEI dist in your 225? could you use the tach out plug on that? since it seems to run my relatively cheapo tach now.
Ya know, that is what I'vve been wondering as I've watched this whole thing unfold, I know several people must be runnin tachs off of their HEI, how if the signal is such a mess??

[zed]

so would we still be talking about a 1986-89 astro 4.3L v6 TBI? ecu, injectors, harness, etc.

direct to a 225 no manifold change etc.?

[mruta]

so would we still be talking about a 1986-89 astro 4.3L v6 TBI? ecu, injectors, harness, etc.

direct to a 225 no manifold change etc.?

You could use any 4.3 TBI engine from 86-95. The differences between the years are very minor. You would have to use a TBI to 2bbl or 4bbl adapter. If 4bbl, you'd have to use an aftermarket manifold.

[OrangeCJ5]

Ya know, that is what I'vve been wondering as I've watched this whole thing unfold, I know several people must be runnin tachs off of their HEI, how if the signal is such a mess??

I do run a HEI distributor, I also run a "factory look" tach off my distributor. I just tapped the Tach wire for the signal input on my Pro Jection kit. Want pics?

[Zoomer]

Boy, MegaSquirt is sounding better all the time. Has built in support for odd fire (fuel only). Modifying the guts of the distributor to provide the odd fire spark and the even pulses for a Ford / GM ecu sounds like a mess. Crank sensor would be the way to go IMHO, but you still need a distributor if your ECU doesn't support odd fire. You'll still have to tune it somehow to get the mixture right through the RPM band. If I ever tackle this, it'll be with MegaSquirt2 and a wide band O2. There is a member or two who have done the MegaSquirt and were happy with the results.

Off topic, how much would people pay for a bolt in EFI system for their Dauntless, pre tuned for a standard engine, including all parts for installation?

[$ sink]

I do run a HEI distributor, I also run a "factory look" tach off my distributor. I just tapped the Tach wire for the signal input on my Pro Jection kit. Want pics?


If'n it isn't too much bother

[OrangeCJ5]

If'n it isn't too much bother

Not at all.

ftp://67.41.175.185/jeep6.jpg

Factory look tachometer

ftp://67.41.175.185/jeep7.jpg

Tach feed with tap running to Pro Jection ECU (White wire)

[zed]

hmmmm....

[willys59cj5]

I think anyone who gets into fuel injection will spend at least $500-$800. With my megasquirt system I just added all the reciepts up and it was $900. That excludes the laptop you need for tuning and the TBI I already had on hand. Fuel injecting with megasquirt is a huge undertaking and a very educational process. I would say that if your not real computer literate go Holley more bolt on than the megasquirt system. The megasquirt system is more tuneable for each engine where the holley isn't a prefect tune. Trade offs:roll: If you go with megasquirt plan on using a wideband O2 sensor. Good luck. If anyone has questions about megasquirt please start another post specifically for it so we don't highjack this thread.:)