Timing, firing help please....

[CJ6]

Ok, I made a diagrham of the ignition curcuit with the correct color wires etc. I actually pulled the harness, checked all wires and replaced some connectors, etc. I check continuity and everything well and replaced the harness.

I did a compression test and replaced, gapped and torqued the plugs;

Gap: 0.035

1-148
3-150
5-155
2-155
4-155
6-150

Added new ground and Pos. wires/connectors
New points, rotor button, plug wires and coil.
No distributor cap to be found yet, used the old one.

Got timing light, vacume gauge, meter and engine analyser all hooked up and ready to fine tune.

It cranked up and ran at about 1800 RPM, no good though.

Set dwell: 31

Could not get the engine down to idle to check timing. It ran rough and smoked pretty bad. After all said and done I had no spark on the number 6 cylinder. I was using the timing light to verify sparking. Checked the other cylinders and was getting fire but seemed sparatic at best. I assumed distributor so far.

The next morning I replaced the points, coil, and rotor button with the old. Still not firing properly. I could not get spark on number 1 and spark on other cylinders seemed sparatic still. Ran at times at high RPM but would not idle and at times would not crank.

With timing light on spark wire to coil the blink seems sparatic. It does not pulse consistent. Same thing on the plug wires themselves. light.....light....................light.light.lig ht.........light...light.......light.
This doesn't seem right.

With it running at a high rpm, and when I get firing on number one I can adjust my timing light and see the timing mark but it is real irratic. Lighting in one spot a couple of revs, then moving way up, then back down, etc.

So...sorry this is so long. I am thinking distributor cap. If I am getting spark through the coil wire but not to a pulg wire it has to be something like that right?

I am not sure how the coil wire should light-up on the timing light. I am assuming it should be fast and consistant, period.

I acts like a condensor bad but I replaced it with the old one and it doesn't change the problem.

I tried a different ballast res. also, no change.

12v to coil

Continuity from (-)coil to points

I do not have a manual but I know there are some tests I can run with my meter to check primary/secondary curcuit, etc.

Any ideas, or any tests you know of I can run with my meter or timing light?

[case931]

This has happened to me several times. One thing that sometimes helps is to make sure plugs are scrupulously clean. (I run mine thru the bead blaster). While I have the plugs all out, I will crank over the engine several seconds to maybe blow out any excess gas or crud.
Voltage to coil should be around 6-7 volts after it has passed thru ballast resistor. Bypass, switch, whatever inside the starter solenoid kicks it up to 12+ volts during cranking. 12 volts on points all the time will probably fry them in short order.
Put a vacuum gauge on it to get some indication of leaks and/or early or late timing. My V-6 would not run on X? degrees BTDC (with Prestolite distributor) like the book said. Don't know if something has moved , but finally set it by driving down the road, adjust timing, drive down the road, adjust timing until I just got beyond the valve clatter under hard acceleration.

[John A. Shows]

Case 931, my Haynes book said that with a Prestolite distributor, the timing should be set @ 0 DBTDC. With a Delco, it was 5 DBTDC.

[CJ6]

My timing really isn't the issue I don't think. I can't get consistant fire to check timing. I have something wrong in the ignition curcuit.


How about this question: If I have the timing light hooked on the coil to distributor top plug shouldn't I be seeing quick consistant light? I am getting irractic non- cyclical lighting

I would think even if the timing is off. The light would show consistant pulsing. I am getting irratic if any pulsing on the plug wires.

[John A. Shows]

Nelson, are you sure your light is good?
Maybe you could hook it up to another vehicle and test it.

[CJ6]

John, I did check my light last night. It seems fine.

I got a Delco ditributor cap and it didn't fit :roll:

The plate inside the distributor (one that the points mount to) has Delco stamped on it. However, the Delco ditributor will not fit?

I am really at a loss now :evil:

I replaced the old cap and still am not getting proper fire, in fact no fire on #1. I can't even get the motor to fire at all anymore.

I have checked volts to coil, check the ballast, checked for resistance throughout the ignition wiring curcuit.

At one point I removed and grounded #1 I had some fire but it was more yellow in appearance which indicates to me weak ignition. I am wondering if my light is not able to pick-up a weak fire. I have continuity from the coil primary to coil secondary, from the coil tower to the distributor, from the coil to the points. I have check ground from the distributor to the motor, and motor to the battery.

Although I removed, checked and replaced the ignition curcuit wiring harness nothing has changed. I niether added nor removed any wires in the curcuit. I checked continuity on all wires.

Any other tests you guys can think of?

[barry]

Did you try cranking it with the dwell meter on it? It should have given you a reading close to 30 degrees if the points are set right. Weak spark can come from the points misadjusted.

Just a thought.

[CJ6]

Dwell set at 30-31 and no Variance at different RPMs (when running).

[barry]

Assuming you have a ballast resistor, what voltage is at the + side of the coil? Should be around 9 volts.

Have you tried running a jumper wire from the + side of the battery to the + side of the coil and trying to start it? This would give 12 volts to the coil for a hotter spark for starting. I would suggest taking the wires off the + side of the coil and only having the jumper on it, on the pretense the ignition wiring/switch is not correct. Also, if there are multiple wires on the - side of the coil, such as a noise suppressor or a tach, disconnect these wires so only the distributor is connected to the post.

Hope this helps.

[CJ6]

+ side coil 8.5-9v

Tried the Jumper to the coil, no change.


Keep um coming Barry :?

[barry]

OK. Did you take out the dist when you were tuning it?

Is it possible that you shorted the wire from the - post on the coil to ground? This could be possible when you replaced the points. The wire might be pinched in the dist housing. If you use an ohm meter with no voltage to the coil, can you see it bounce when connected to the - post on the coil and the other side to ground and you close and open the points?

I'm trying.
:?

[CJ6]

I check continuity there but did not check ohms. I thought this and examined the wire but I will review it again. I didn't think to check ohms here so I will.

I have found the correct dist. cap will put it all together again today and try again.

I am thinking somehow the plugs (all) could have gotten fouled and not allowing ground, thus spark. I will remove them all again, double check plug wire connections, check continuity on everything again, set dwell again, check voltage, replace coil, points, condensor, button, cap and fire it off. Its gonna work today I feel it 8)

Thanks mucho Barry.

[GDB]

Sounds like a possible condensor problem to me.

[Zeke]

Have you made sure your timing chain didn't jump a tooth?

[barry]

I would agree with the condensor theory, except that he has tried two. That's why I went for the grounded wire. I wonder? Is the condensor connected to the correct location on the points?????

[John A. Shows]

Not a mechanic here, but I do remember when I took old Nixon's engine out, my nephew told me it's very important to remember where the number 1 was at on the distributor cap. He said that if you remove the distributor, and if the gear on the bottom of the distributor is spun, and it doesn't go back in exactly where it came off, that it will cause a horrible problem. He told me a story about a friend who removed the distributor during a rebuilld. He looked down at that gear and was so amazed by it's function, that he couldn't resist just spinning away at it. When he put it back in just anywhere it would fit, and then spun the engine over for the initial cranking, it backfired through the carb and caught on fire.

My mechanic brother did not see this as a problem, but it wasn't because it wasn't necessary, he just said he knew how to get it right back in the correct spot without actually marking the number 1 or the gears. Actually, he got it close the first time, and had to pull it back out and spin the gear a little bit. I'm thinking only one gear tooth adjustment.

I don't know anything about mechanics, but I thought I'd throw that in there to see if a real mechanic, may decifer it and translate it in gear head lingo.

[CJ6]

Good ideas guys

Condensor: I am familair with problems with these. Typically a condesor will not effect cranking. Hard cranking and shut off during normal operation of just a few minutes/seconds the condensor is usually suspect. Unless the points have been burned due to a bad condensor you will almost always get firing. I have used several including the old one I took out and no change. two of the three I have are a complete unit point/condensor. If seperate there is only one place to hook up the condensor. That place being the same place as the secondary lead.


Timing gear/chain: I don't think this is the cause. Even severe out of time will produce some ignition as some point during the crank cycle. I have read though that this V6 is pretty perculiar so I am not ruling that out. However, a light on #1(for example) is going to blink cyclically regardless.

You guys are all on the right track though. I have located the correct dist. cap. I am going to put everything back together, double check grounds, clean plugs, check continuity, check dwell, etc, etc. and fire it up. This time it will work......I hope.

Thanks again for all the replies...its very frustrating.

[John A. Shows]

I'd be willing to be that this is one of those simple things that will make you slap your forehead when you figure it out. Kinda like my new alternator when all I had to do was reroute the wire to the starter in lieu of the battery. Let us know. I'm sure someone will need the final solution somewhere along the way.

[Hippo393]

CJ6: My CJ service manual warns about plug wires being routed too close to each other, for they can pick up voltage from each other and turns and oddfire into an eccentric-fire. It recommends spacing them apart, like 2,6,4 along the valve cover side rather than running them 2,4,6 close together. Maybe in your troubleshooting phase, find a way to geographically separate the wires from each other altogether and see if it helps. Voltage could also jump to the valve cover to ground, I suppose. HTH!
-alan
_____
Disclaimer: I don't know!

[CJ6]

Thanks Hippo I have heard that before. I will do as you said though with the 264 set up.


Its running............

Ok, put everything back together with the right, new distrib. cap a little starting fluid and vuala. I have never had a distributor cap cause a problem without noticable cracks but.... I will have to say that is the only thing different last night.

I have no dwell varience....good

I have about 20inhg of vacume with no fluctuations...good

I was able to get the RPM down to 1000....ok

Timing....well...... right now it appears to be running at about 60deg AFTD.....not good.

I cannot turn the distributor counterclockwise to move the mark to 0-5deg cause the motor starts running rough. I have to turn it clockwise and move the mark on around to 0-5deg. However, the vacume advance module hits the intake and will not turn on around. I am thinking of moving the wires on the cap around 1 position which will give me enough movement in the mark to then be able to fine tune it.

I find this odd though...it seems to run ok where it is...just not fine tuned......quite odd. I also find it odd with it currently running I can move the distributor cap around alot. Basically #1 at 10:00 I can move it around to 12:00 with little change in the RPM. Based on where the timing mark is and where it should be I need #1 to be at about 3:00....this is contrary to where it should be which is around 10:00. (looking at it from the fenderwell). Thats why I want to move the wires around one position....whatch think?

Getting the idle down to 750 may move the mark some but very little.....so hmmmmm

Does the vacume reading look right to you guys. I am happy not to see any fluctuations. All in all I am pleased so far now I just need to fine tune it and we will be off and running....


Thanks for all of the help and troubleshooting....man I love jeeps and jeepers.

[John A. Shows]

That sounds just like my problem, that we fixed by pulling the distributor, and rotating the gears a few teeth. If you can measure distance in teeth.

[CJ6]

John do you think the PO had the dist. off 180deg?

I would appear that #1 would need to move around to 3:00-4:00 position to move the timing mark close to the scale. The opposite of 3-4:00 would put the #1 close to 10:00 where it should be.

Would this thing run at all being 180 out?

[lynn]

Definitely sounds like 180 out to me, like it was set up on the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke.

Also, as I recall you don't move one wire ahead on an odd-fire, you move two. :shock:
See Merl's write up "Understanding the Odd-Fire V6" here:
http://home.off-road.com/~merls_garage/index.html
Here he explains moving the wires, IIRC.

[69CJ]

easy check...

pull #1 plug, rotate engine until timing marks line up (0*) on pullys and the #1 piston is at top of stroke, look at rotor & see where it's pointing - it should be right there at the #1 terminal.

hth

[John A. Shows]

It's all coming back to me now. Before installing the distributor, we turned the engine over with a pull wrench, until the #1 piston, was at the top. This in turn put the harmonic balancer timing mark, right @ 0 BTDC. Then we inserted the distributor in the hole in the close proximity of having the #1 where it was when we removed it. We fired it up, but couldn't get it timed. We bottomed out both directions and it wouldn't get there. We pulled the distributor and rotated the teeth on the distributor a few clicks and reinserted it. This time it timed very easily. Before that it was horribly rough. I wish I could speak in mechanical terms with you so you'd understand better. Sorry

[CJ6]

Ok...I know this is getting old for you guys but I really appreciate your help.

I checked and I am not out 180. Bear in mind my Dist Cap has the plug numbers marked on it.

#1-setup

Plugs: Proper location on cap

Dwell: 30

Idle: 1000RPM couldn't go lower without stalling

Run: Seemed to run OK, I did drive around the block

Start: Seemed ok

Vacume: steady 20in

Timing: Mark location is around 40 deg ATDC.

Distributor: No clockwise adjustment (hits manifold)

As far as running and power this seemed the best set-up but I had no further timing adjustment by turning the dist. (not sure I needed any based on running but notice the timing mark location?

#2-setup

Plugs: Moved clockwise 1 position on cap

Dwell: 30

Idle: 750, slight missing

Run: no power, occasional backfire, undriveable

Start: Seemed ok

Vacume: fluctuates 15in

Timing: 5 deg BTDC, OK

Distributor: Adjustable, but VA points directly at fan


You see the problem I have? #1 set-up is the best, but the timing mark is not even close to spec. and I have a problem getting the idle low enough.

#2 setup I can get all the specs on mark but it runs rough, has now power and is undrivable.

Tidbits: At TDC the rotor button points directly between the fan and Alternator. Seems a little to far clockwise to me.

With #1 being the best doesn't it appear to you guys that maybe it has jumped a tooth on the timing gear?

I guess with #1setup the idle problem could be a carb issue. I guess it could also be a problem with #2set-up as well.

Also, notice the vacume on #1 v #2, #1 steady at 20, #2 fluctuates and 15in. The lower pressure and fluctuation indicates a timing issue IMO.

Lynn; I tried two spots on the wire movement...worse than both these.

Zeke; I am leaning towards that but have to pull the front to check....I know I will need to it......

John; I am not sure if turning the dist gear under this circumstance will do anything....my brain is not visualizing that.....yet.

Whatca think?

[John A. Shows]

My VA points at the fan too, but it doesn't hit anything so it's not a problem. Turning the gears turns the rotor I think so that when the number one cylinder fires, it's at TDC. Hell, I really shouldn't be in this discussion. I may try to send a link to this board to my brother, who's a really good mechanic. Super smart guy in all aspects. Maybe he can join the forum long enough to shed some light on the situation. He doesn't have a jeep, but I'm working on him, and he's helped me on Nixon, to no end, so he's very educated.

[barry]

It still sounds like it has skipped one or more teeth. My number 1 is at 10 o'clock and I run 5 BTDC. Lots of adjustment if I want it.

[John A. Shows]

My brother tried to log on but I think his computer is a little old. Here's what he says and I quote:

Bring the engine to top dead center on the number 1 plug (compression stroke). Make certain that TDC on the harmonic balancer is aligned with the marked timing tab on the timing cover.

Remove distributor cap.

The rotor should be pointing towards the number one tower on the distributor cap. If not, remove the distributor hold down clamp, lift the distributor out of the engine until the distributor drive disengages the camshaft drive gear. Rotate the distributor counterclockwise slightly past the location of the number one tower on the distributor cap. Drop the distributor back in the engine until cam gear and distributor gear mesh.

Note: The crankshaft may have to be rotated slightly to engage the oil pump drive tang. When distributor is fully seated, return crankshaft to TDC, and check rotor to tower number one alignment. That should put you very close.

Start the engine, remove the vacuum advance line from the distributor and plug, and adjust timing to 5 DBTDC.

DO NOT CHECK TIMING WITH VACUUM ADVANCE CONNECTED. IT CAUSES FLUCTUATION IN THE RPMS, WHICH JOCKIES THE TIMING ARROUND.

[69CJ]

If everything checks out in the distributor, wiring, etc,. I'd be wondering about the chain.

How many miles on this rig?

[gealic]

With the timing jumping around, it is most likely a stretched chain or broken tensioner. With the distributor cap off, crank the engine forward and backward by hand. If you can move the crank more than a few degrees without the distributor turning its time to pull the front cover an look a the chain, gears and tensioners.

If it is the chain, I's suggest you replace it with a roller version, Edlebrock still has them for the 225.

[campwillys]

Interesting post.

[maxx]

I wonder if there is something wrong with the advance? Wrong or defective vac module, or with the centrifugal advance? Weights too light, or springs too heavy or light?
Napa sells rebuilt distributors for the oddfire. So does Rock auto.com.
What I am confused about is the fact that (if I understand correctly) that you have a prestolite dist. body, but a Delco plate & cap? that could be the problem IMHO.

[tdobson]

If I wasn't going totaly stock with it, I'd throw a HEI in it and be done with it

[TigerShark]

This is a good post with lots of good info. Unfortunately I can't help with the diagnosis, but if you get time, can you send me your notes on wire colors? I'm in the process of updating a wiring diagram with the factory color scheme.

Thanks,

Jim

[Chris Insull]

What distributor are you running? I ran into a similar problem with my Prestolite; high idle only, no power and backfiring. Turns out the spring for the point arm wasn't heavy enough. Snipped off the old spring, swapped in the heavier one and it ran great after that. Just a thought...

[justin]

Maybe youve already checked this, but I didnt catch it in reading all the posts. Have you pulled your valve cover and spark plug to ensure that your on TDC on the compression stroke and not the exhaust?? Had this problem once before, after three weeks, lots of cussing, throwing tools, and almost bald from pulling hairs, I went back to basics and started from ground zero. The motor will run, just wont be able to time it. Doing the dist 180 out wont help. Turn the motor over by hand with spark plugs out to check placement.

[cole57chevy]

If you are not getting fire on the even bank of cylinders, the 225 may have the incorrect distributor in it. I ran into the same problem. I nearly beat myself up trying to figure out what was going on. I have a 71' with a 225 (or atleast i thought). Its actually a 71 chassy with a pre 65' 225 dauntless. Visually I could not tell the difference, but when i put in the correct distributor and cap in, a puff of smoke from the right exhaust, the engine hummed, i could time at low RPM, and the world was right again. I was advised of this situation a few months ago from a good samaritan on this website as well. Take a look and see what happens.

[cole57chevy]

If you are not getting fire on the even bank of cylinders, the 225 may have the incorrect distributor in it. I ran into the same problem. I nearly beat myself up trying to figure out what was going on. I have a 71' with a 225 (or atleast i thought). Its actually a 71 chassy with a pre 65' 225 dauntless. Visually I could not tell the difference, but when i put in the correct distributor and cap in, a puff of smoke from the right exhaust, the engine hummed, i could time at low RPM, and the world was right again. I was advised of this situation a few months ago from a good samaritan on this website as well. Take a look and see what happens.


Correction, Pre 67'

[hickntick]

sounds like the same trouble I'm having. I have a mallory dualpoint, going to replace it with a new delco dist. cap is a borg warner c175 the frist one I got didn't fit not sure about # I've done about the same thing you have the dist. is the only thig I have not changed. mine will run well for a while then sputter then wont fire